How does food equate to health

[Paul B]

I don't know if you noticed but there are an awefully lot of people posting on disease forums. Why is that? Fish in the sea are almost always healthy until someone puts them in a tank. I have been diving since the early 70s and don't remember ever seeing a sick fish on a reef. How many fish refuse to eat while in a tank? Way to many. How many fish live long enough to die of old age in a tank? Very very few. Why is that? I think I know.

The only thing I think I do that may be different from many people in regard to fish health is to feed food every day that has living bacteria in it. Why is that important? It is important because it is the gut bacteria in the fish, and all living creatures that determine the state of health the fish is going to be. Not the water parameters but the gut bacteria. Gut bacteria in fish is directly responsible for the condition of the immune system and the immune system is directly responsible for the fishes health. In humans it is also partly responsible for mental health, moods and the risk of obesity and cancer. It also helps manufacture vitamins such as vitamin B and K. We don't normally think of gut bacteria until we kill it off by either drinking to much alcohol or taking antibiotics. That hangover is partly due to the of dying of bacteria. Antibiotics have the unfortunate habbit of only killing some strains of bacteria while leaving others unscathed. After taking some antibiotics it could take up to a year for our bacterial flora to return to normal levels. I am not sure how quickly it occurs in fish. The study of gut bacteria in humans and to a lesser extent fish has recently brought about some interesting insights. Experiments are being done by transfering gut bacteria from healthy people to people with all sorts of maladys and in many cases the bacteria returns the ill person to health. They found that if they take stomach flora from an obese rat and put it in a normal rat, the normal mouse becomes obese. That in itself is, to me anyway, totally astonishing and opens up an entire new world of research. This even happened to a person. In trying to cure a disease, they took gut bacteria from a healthy person and deposited it into the stomach of a sick person. But the doner was obese. Guess what happened? Not only was the sick person cured, but he became obese also.

Gut bacteria is probably 2/3rds of the mass in the colon of us humans and probably also in fish. They compromise over 1,000 species of bacteria and the population of bacteria is unique and different in every fish. Gut bacteria is largly determined by what the fish is eating including what types of bacteria and in what condition it is in. We (and fish) have ten times more bacterial genes in us than human genes.

We humans aquire gut bacteria from our Mothers as soon as we are born through breast feeding. It is now known that babies that are fed on formula do not have the correct gut bacteria and are at much more of a risk for allergies later in life. Fish fry get their first dose of gut bacteria from the Mother while they are still in the egg and that is how tiny fry can live in a soup of diseases and parasites as they grow.

One reason why so many people have so much trouble keeping fish healthy is because they feed nothing but dry, sterile foods. Dry foods have all been sterilized through the process of drying or they have preservatives added. If dry food had bacteria in it, it would go bad very quickly and most bacteria (like everything else) needs moisture to live. If you feed nothing but dry foods I believe you should add some frozen or fresh food to the diet.

Why can I put fish in my tank from anywhere without quarantining with no fear of a disease while some tanks are ich magnets and no matter what they do, they can't keep fish alive. I think it is due to the correct gut bacteria that my fish get every day through live worms, or frozen foods such as clams which are filter feeders and are loaded with bacteria. Or as many people like to say, I am "lucky" and have been for 40 years. If you are the type of person that quarantines, I believe you should be feeding types of foods that have living bacteria in them. Frozen foods have bacteria in them in a dormant state that should revive as the food warms up. Live foods such as worms, brine shrimp, mosqueto larvae etc are also full of bacteria although some live foods would be better than others nutritionally. Remember we should not only focus on the nutritional value of a food, but maybe even more important, the bacterial population as that is the key to fishes health and more importantly, our own.

For the many people that don't believe in any of this, think it is fantasy or that I made it up because I have nothing to do, just google Gut Bacteria and how it effects health.

 

[E048]

As a biology and ecology student I have to correct you on some things.

The reason you don't see sick fish when you dive is because of opportunistic feeders on a reef. As soon as a fish starts showing anything problem wise something somewhere on that reef will eat it.

As far as feeding fish things with living bacteria we already do that. When you open a container of flakes or thaw out some frozen food there's bacteria in there...

As far as gut bacteria go the only reason you would need to supplement your fish with more would be if you gave them some kind of broad spectrum antibiotic that killed off most of their natural intestinal flora.... Which is rarely the case since most animals can rests lush this quickly by eating less desirable things full of bacteria that are already in your tank (detritus, fish poop, etc)

Hope I cleared some stuff up

 

[Paul B]

EO48, thank you for responding. I was going to add that about the sick fish being eaten in the sea but that is not always the case. I have spent about 300 hours underwater in places I can't even pronounce and I am sure if there were any sick fish, I would have seen one before it was eaten. Of course if a fish is lethargic and near death, it would quickly be eaten. But a fish infected with parasites in the sea would be a mild case for the reasons you know. I am sure you know about immunity in us and in fish and of course the parasites would be far widespread in the sea. The reason to supplement bacteria with the correct foods is because flake food, although it has some airborne bacteria in it is not the correct bacteria for a fish. Fish in the sea eat living prey with every bite and I assume that is the way they were designed. It is also the reason I do not have to quarantine and have not since about 1980.
Many people take pro biotics because our modern diet also does not supply the correct bacteria as many of us live on junk food which is also loaded with preservatives.
I also add mud from the sea to my tank almost every week in the summer to supplement the bacteria. I believe that is why my tank is almost 45 years old, all my paired fish are spawning, even the 24 year olds and I can put an ich infected fish in my reef which I do many times and nothing will happen.
I can not explain that any other way but maybe you can as you have more medical knowledge than I do.

 

[McMullen]

Nice Paul B!
There is a lot of discussion on bacteria and strains in our water but virtually none in regards to our fish/health. I suspect one could research and find normal flora within reef fish to know what should be there and it probably is not what's going to be present from simply opening a can of food. Would also need to find out if the bacteria die from freezing (frozen foods), I assume probably so!
Dang it! My wife is not going to let me keep black worms in the fridge......

 

[E048]

The issue with fish that you see swimming in a reef and a tank is also the proximity and size....

A tank is a closed system for the most part. And so what you put in is what's in there. Most fish on reefs have parasites but they don't show signs because they either have some kind of immunity to it or it's not active in their bodies.

Most fish don't ship well and it's while they are in the fish facilities that they are exposed to the majority of the issues in the reef tank. Think of a fish facility as a fish airport. You're getting Caribbean, pacific, Red Sea, Atlantic, etc etc livestock all cooped up in the same place running the same water. So you're bound to cross contaminate eventually. All it takes is one fish with say internal worms to spread it to the whole facility. Some fish will be immune some won't and thus you get some fish that survive and some don't

 

[E048]

Which is why tangs get ich so often (marine ich) comes in many types there's basically a species in every ocean and if there isn't there will be

The ich seen on a yellow tang will be different than what you might find on an atalantic blue

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Supplementing feeds and water with beneficial bacteria to aid in the development of marine fish has been done for a while now and the benefits are numerous. This was one article posted about how it benefits juvenile clownfish. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...ncrease-growth-and-health-of-larval-clownfish

We work with numerous clownfish breeders as well as aquaculture facilities and supplementation with probiotics is a HUGE area of interest right now. I don't want to make Paul's post sound like an LRS plug, but we began supplementing our foods with bacteria in early 2013 which has drawn many researchers to us seeking probiotic feeds. (You may recall at MACNA 2014 when the $20,000 G. personatus angelfish breeding project was announced that LRS sponsored that with our foods throughout the project.) This page explains a lot of the benefits and why supplementation can help: http://www.larrysreefservices.com/probiotics.html

As Paul mentioned supplementing with live feeds is a great way to boost the gut flora. In the angelfish project mentioned above Karen did in fact feed live plankton to help establish a local colony of bacteria which was then supplemented with our food. Stresses of collection, medication and transit can all upset the balance of bacteria in the gut.

Freezing bacteria does not kill it as one person suggested, hence the reason we need to heat and cook our foods to rid them of bacteria. We have tested all our foods after weeks in the freezer and after being shipped at -50F with dry ice and the bacterial counts are still very high. Storing food in the freezer for an extended period of time would cause a gradual reduction of viable bacteria. The lab results are on our website were from samples stored for 30+ days at -30 before testing.

When we released our newest food (Fertility Frenzy) we pulled data from more recent aquaculture studies and changed gears going to a multi-strain bacterial supplement. It is getting slightly off topic but broodstock diet and supplementation plays an important role in egg quality and can help jump start the larvae by making them more viable and robust. The results have been off the charts for the new http://www.larrysreefservices.com/lrs-fertility-frenzy.html

Again I apologize for making this sound like I was inserting LRS plugs, but honestly it was the easiest way to share some info since we have it already posted to our site. Not a day goes by when we don't discuss probiotics since premium foods are a hot topic in our industry with probiotics being added to other frozen foods who are following our lead.

Great topic Paul.

 

[Paul B]

Hello there Larry, How are you? I am glad you posted. When I wrote this (and quite a few other articles/posts) on this subject I knew there were going to be doubters and just plain un-believers so I was hesitant to post it. On some forums, I can't even mention immunity. As you know I got my experience through many years of diving and keeping fish continuously for 60 years. Very little of my experience or Ideas are re-hashed from old posts, rumors or the net as I formed my ideas before those things existed.
So far no one can explain to me, except by saying I am lucky, why my fish are immune. I "think" they are immune because scientific studies last for a few months or until the money runs out so no one really fully knows why this occurs in the scientific community. Very little time is spent on ornamental fish problems as there is no money in it. My "experiment" on immunity has lasted for decades with no fish becoming infected with anything. I have been on these forums since they invented them and never posted on a disease forum that I remember unless it was an incite or something like Pop Eye which is not an infectious disease. Just in the last couple of years we have been figuring out how immunity is affected by gut bacteria. As EO48 mentioned we get bacteria into the guts of fish no matter what we do, but that bacteria is far from the type of bacteria fish are getting in the sea. Also if we quarantine our fish for 72 days as it sometimes suggested while at the same time feeding dry foods I feel that those fish will always be in a compromised state and you will always have to quarantine because their immune system is not fully functioning. Of course I have no idea how long a fishes immune system can run without an influx of the correct bacteria or nutrients and I am sure all fish are different but I do know as we have just found out that the biggest roadblock to us going on long space voyages will be the lack of new bacteria for the astronauts. They can't just open a window or send out for Pizza. Eventually the bacteria in the gut thins out and some strains will be lost. To me this is the same problem with DSBs but for a slightly different reason. We as aquarists still don't equate fish health with the bacterial variety in the food. I do. I think we will grasp this concept soon as researchers are just now discovering how important gut bacteria is for us. I have put the question out there on immunity and so far I still have not gotten an answer (except that lucky thing) In a few years my tank will be running for 50 years. At that time I may take it down because I will be like 100. If my fish are still immune by then, I think the professors who teach these things will need to think harder. Many people still have the same disease problems in their tanks as we did in the 70s. It has gotten no better and we are still going by the same rumors. To me it is simple. Get your fish immune from everything so you don't have to worry about quarantining and curing fish as there will be no need. As you know, disease threads predominate these forums and there is no need for it. Just my opinion of course and if I offended anyone. They will just have to get over it. (sorry)
Here is some reading:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/290747.php

And one of my articles.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/
And of course I wrote a chapter in my book on this even though I realize it is controversial.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Pretty busy day here but I wanted to recognize your comment about not much money being used in the hobby for research. Google "probiotics in aquaculture" and you can read for days on what is being done and how. There is BIG money in aquaculture for the fish, scallop, mollusks used for human consumption so that was where we spend most of the time reading journals and corresponding with folks far more educated than I on the subject. Using that data we crossed it over to an ornamental fish diet.

Talk soon buddy!

 

[Paul B]

Larry you are reading faster than your mind can comprehend. I hope you are still not eating your own food, at least not the stuff with the worms in it. I did say:
Quote: . Very little time is spent on ornamental fish problems as there is no money in it. Virtually all the money is spent on commercial food fish as you pointed out.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

No I read right that is why I said "hobby" meaning the ornamental hobby. The majority of the research is for the culturing of the fish we eat.

 

[Paul B]

OK Larry. Samantics now.

 

[Paul B]

Some information on "human" bacteria.
http://news.discovery.com/human/hea...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_510828

 

[McMullen]

You mean herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, etc, are bad for my health????!!!!!


Great read BTW!!!

 

[Triggreef]

So if I were to get my hands on some skinny gut bacteria....

anyway...

Dang it! My wife is not going to let me keep black worms in the fridge......

You don't have to keep them in the fridge... http://reef2reef.com/threads/live-blackworm-keeping.233262/

 

[Paul B]

We all could use some skinny gut bacteria. Supermodels found it but they are hiding them

 

[SunnyX]

I may be the exception to the rule but I have been feeding nothing but Flakes and pellets to my fish for 20 years. Over the last 12 years I have exclusively fed my fish only Spectrum Pellets and Formula One/Two flakes. While I haven't kept any "exotic" fish I have kept Tangs, Anthias, Clownfish, Tuskfish, Butterflyfish and a host of others with no evidence of disease. Many of the fish were long lived, including a Blue Hippo Tang who survived for 13 years and never displayed lateral line or any other disease that Tangs typically display with old age. The fish only died when he jumped out of my reef. I also have never dealt with ich or encountered any other disease for that matter. Perhaps my fortune can be attributed to my supplier, as all of my fish have come from the same LFS. But, I haven't seen a benefit to feeding frozen.

Out of curiosity I have tried most frozen foods. Yes, many of my fish ate the food but I saw no benefit to spending extra money on the products. I have kept many healthy tangs and never fed nori or any other type of seaweed.

I would attribute the issues that some have with fish down to user error. Most people who have issues with fish also have a hard time keeping corals healthy.

Now, I am not trying to take anything away from the initial post or thread, as I believe you raise a valid point, but the assertion that fish need frozen or live food is misleading. Yes, bacteria is very important for humans and fish, but we are adaptable and do quite well so long as our nutritional needs are met.

Again, I may be the exception to this rule. Nonetheless, its an interesting topic and thank you for shedding some light on it.



Big Blue (11 years old in this picture)

A trio of healthy Tangs

40+ Anthias fed completely on dry food

 

[Paul B]

SunnyX, thank you for replying. That is a nice assortment of healthy looking fish you have there. My first hippo tang also lived many years on flakes as that was the only food then. Tangs and angels are a type of fish that live mainly on seaweeds so I would assume, are better suited to live on flakes which have a lot of vegetable matter in them. As you correctly pointed out, fish can certainly live long lives on flakes. I personally feel that frozen foods are better. I could be wrong but I also want my fish spawning as that is the pinnacle of fish health. Of course most tangs won't spawn in captivity because they need more water but most other types of fish and all fish that are not egg scatters should be spawning and they should be doing that every few weeks. Fish in the sea are always spawning as that is the normal state of all fish. Fish constantly develop eggs and if there is no mate, they just absorb them. But if a fish is as healthy as it can be, it will be filled with eggs. I have bred clowns and most damsels by just feeding dry foods but clownfish seem to be very easy and will practically live on cardboard. Most other fish need more quality protein and oils to spawn or be able to spawn. I also like the idea of live bacteria on the live food I feed but you do seem to be fine with out it.
Thanks
Paul

PS, how big is your tank. I have been studying HLLE and I have a theory about it.

 

[Triggreef]

Some fish can do fine on dry food I'm sure. But throw in a convict tang, butterflies, leopard wrasses, etc... I doubt they would fare as well.

 

[Paul B]

Many fish will live for decades on dry food. But dry foods can not provide the oils fish are used to eating in the sea. Some fish such as tangs live almost entirely on plants so they would be able to better adapt to dry foods which will supply almost all of their needs. Most of the fish we keep are omnivores and in the sea they get almost all of their diet as proteins and oils. When fish spawn (which they do constantly) their eggs are almost a third the weight of their body, sometimes more. The eggs are almost all oil. It is much easier for the fish if you feed some oil to them. When a fish eats another fish as they do constantly, much of their meal is fish oil which is what their liver is mostly made out of. So of course if you like, you can feed fish dry foods. IMO, (and I did say in my opinion) fish are healthier and possibly in spawning condition if you feed them something that they were eating in the sea.
Just my opinion as I keep saying because I am to old to argue. We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. But this is mine.

I have been doing a lot of research on this topic and here is where I got some of my information from because I am sure there are some people who think I make this stuff up as I go along. Well, some of it I do, but most of it comes from my own experience and reading articles such as this one. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ew_of_the_Immunological_Defenses_in_Fish_Skin