How high can I mix Instant Ocean before I have to worry about precipitation?

[V A R I A N T]

sourcing an affordable reef safe sodium chloride should be easy to one to answer.

Maybe OP’s secret is in this last sentence, or his thread history of building his own kalk controller. Could they want to make their own reef salt? Could they want to create some sort of automated saltwater mixer & water changer? We may never know.

 

[92Miata]

This critique seems a bit off the mark. The folks on this site are humans not machines. If you ask an “odd” question and then blow off answering the obvious question of “hey what are you doing”, then I feel you missed two opportunities, first to practice common courtesy and answer the question, and secondly, to learn something. There is nothing so off putting as asking a question and responding “shut up and just answer my question” (figuratively speaking of course).

As for gleaning information from folks, the original question wasn’t quite the optimum way to get what you wanted.

I disagree.


This is the chemistry forum, not the general reefing or beginner forum, and its incredibly frustrating trying to discuss chemistry when people who don't understand basic reef chemistry are derailing the thread. There are a whole bunch of reasons to mix salt with higher sodium/chloride numbers and getting into them are ancillary to the thread, and will just derail it further.

They don't need instructions on how much salt it takes to make 1.025. They don't need a critique on whether or not IO is "dirty" or suggestions to use RC. The critique isn't off the mark - it's absolutely 100% correct. If people don't have anything helpful or useful to post, they shouldn't post, and should just let Randy try and answer the question.

The question was clear and specific.

 

[WVNed]

Any food grade salt that doesnt contain Iodine should be what you want. Sea salt will contain minerals.
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/guide/801/types-of-salt.html

Solubility of NaCl (g NaCl / 1 kg of solvent at 25 °C (77 °F))[20]
Water	360

Solubility is always temperature dependent

 

[Miami Reef]

I disagree.


This is the chemistry forum, not the general reefing or beginner forum, and its incredibly frustrating trying to discuss chemistry when people who don't understand basic reef chemistry are derailing the thread. There are a whole bunch of reasons to mix salt with higher sodium/chloride numbers and getting into them are ancillary to the thread, and will just derail it further.

They don't need instructions on how much salt it takes to make 1.025. They don't need a critique on whether or not IO is "dirty" or suggestions to use RC. The critique isn't off the mark - it's absolutely 100% correct. If people don't have anything helpful or useful to post, they shouldn't post, and should just let Randy try and answer the question.

The question was clear and specific.

Anyone who knows “basic chemistry“ knows that with higher salinity comes higher precipitation. Certain trace elements are prone to precipitating out.

That’s why knowing the need for the higher salt is crucial. If it’s for the reef tank where there will be corals, it will be different than using it for making a salinity standard.

That‘s why despite the “clear and specific question”, there is lack of answers. And Randy has not responded until now. Why? Not sure.

Science is usually not clear and cut. There are gray areas. If it is “top secret” and doesn’t want anyone to know/help then he can experiment on his own. Many people already told him that he can raise the salinity higher until he notices some precipitation.

 

[Miami Reef]

I'm wanting to know how to mix to [let's say] 50ppm and avoid precipitation.

This is another gray area. Do you mean 50ppm or 50ppt? I’m assuming it’s the latter, but it doesn’t help that you are saying ppm in this entire thread.

edit: most of the thread. Not all.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

This is another gray area. Do you mean 50ppm or 50ppt? I’m assuming it’s the latter, but it doesn’t help that you are saying ppm in this entire thread.

Yes! Thanks for pointing out the error. I meant ppt....

 

[homer1475]

I'm still confused?

I've mixed as high as 45ppt and nothing fell out of suspension or precipitated out. Don't ask, it was a huge mistake many years ago.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Saturation for sea salts is 10 times the concentration of sea water. Anything below that 10 fold value should remain liquid.

That said, different mineral components may be more soluble than others so I would stay below saturation for any of the major minerals.

Look up saturation values for the top 5 ingredients in your salts mix.

Not true.

Calcium carbonate is above saturation even in normal seawater, and raising salinity can cause precipitation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That‘s why despite the “clear and specific question”, there is lack of answers. And Randy has not responded until now. Why? Not sure.

I was travelling.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's a bit more complex than what a normal reefer does. Increasing or decreasing major or minor elements isn't a concern.

I'm wanting to know how to mix to [let's say] 35ppm 35ppt and avoid precipitation.

That is easy.

Add acid to drop the pH and alk.

It works perfectly for normal IO.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For the sake of argument, let's call the questions hypothetical.

Hypothetically, how high can you mix "brand x" salt before having precipitation issues?

And based on that answer, can I source just reef safe salt [void of any trace elements] to avoid said precipitation so that I can mix to a higher concentration?

I'm a big nonfan of hypothetical questions in this forum because MANY times people ask such things, making assumptions that end up not being right,. and people (like me) spend a lot of useless time answering something that ultimately is not solving the question.

A typical one here might be "Because I want to raise salinity by water change". The false assumption is that this is a good way to raise salinity.

Not saying that's your issue. but this is a complex question and I'm not going to waste time on it unless I know it is a legit question.

 

[Jedi1199]

This thread is interesting. I also would like to know the "Why" part of the question.

 

[Midrats]

What if one wanted to hydrate an entire 50g bag of marinemix into a concentrate to make smaller batches with to avoid potential inconsistencies from stratification of the dry ingredients?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What if one wanted to hydrate an entire 50g bag of marinemix into a concentrate to make smaller batches with to avoid potential inconsistencies from stratification of the dry ingredients?

Then that would be a poor plan for reasons of potential precipitation. That's why no one sells a concentrated all in one salt mix solution.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's a paper that might be of interest, but ignore the calcium carbonate value unless you refer to a mix that has exactly seawater alk and pH. Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) is the first major ion precipitate after calcium carbonate.

The evaporation path of seawater and the coprecipitation of Br- and K+ with halite - PubMed

Brines and salt were sampled at the Morton Bahamas solar salt production facility on Great Inagua Island in the Bahamas. The brines were analyzed by ion chromatography to define more precisely than heretofore the evaporation path of seawater to the end of the halite facies. At Inagua, calcium...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Brines and salt were sampled at the Morton Bahamas solar salt production facility on Great Inagua Island in the Bahamas. The brines were analyzed by ion chromatography to define more precisely than heretofore the evaporation path of seawater to the end of the halite facies. At Inagua, calcium carbonate begins to precipitate at a brine concentration factor of 1.8 times that of seawater. Gypsum begins to precipitate at a brine concentration of 3.8 times seawater, and halite at a concentration factor of 10.6.

The paper goes on to describe additional precipitates.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I disagree.


This is the chemistry forum, not the general reefing or beginner forum, and its incredibly frustrating trying to discuss chemistry when people who don't understand basic reef chemistry are derailing the thread. There are a whole bunch of reasons to mix salt with higher sodium/chloride numbers and getting into them are ancillary to the thread, and will just derail it further.

They don't need instructions on how much salt it takes to make 1.025. They don't need a critique on whether or not IO is "dirty" or suggestions to use RC. The critique isn't off the mark - it's absolutely 100% correct. If people don't have anything helpful or useful to post, they shouldn't post, and should just let Randy try and answer the question.

The question was clear and specific.

AMEN!

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I really wish this thread didn't derail into some hidden agenda. There's no secrecy here. I was hoping that this information was already available or easy to compute. What I didn't expect was all the speculation and the need to know specifics.

I also would like to know the "Why" part of the question.

I assure you, it's nothing... it's less than nothing.

That is easy.

Add acid to drop the pH and alk.

It works perfectly for normal IO.

when I went to edit that, I accidentally changed it to 35 when it was supposed to read 50ppt.

Adding acid to lower alk is a great suggestion, is there any other concerns with minor elements when mixing to a higher concentration?

 

[areefer01]

I really wish this thread didn't derail into some hidden agenda.

Welcome to the internet and forums I think you are finally getting the information you are looking for though - which is good.

Hope you have an amazing day!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adding acid to lower alk is a great suggestion, is there any other concerns with minor elements when mixing to a higher concentration?

If you keep calcium carbonate from precipitating, I think you will avoid other issues if you stop at 50 ppt.

 

[Dan_P]

I disagree.


This is the chemistry forum, not the general reefing or beginner forum, and its incredibly frustrating trying to discuss chemistry when people who don't understand basic reef chemistry are derailing the thread. There are a whole bunch of reasons to mix salt with higher sodium/chloride numbers and getting into them are ancillary to the thread, and will just derail it further.

They don't need instructions on how much salt it takes to make 1.025. They don't need a critique on whether or not IO is "dirty" or suggestions to use RC. The critique isn't off the mark - it's absolutely 100% correct. If people don't have anything helpful or useful to post, they shouldn't post, and should just let Randy try and answer the question.

The question was clear and specific.

That is certainly a valid opinion.