How many wrasses?

[Reefkeepers Archive]

For some context, I'm planning on keeping a harem of macropharyngodon meleagris in my 120 4 ft tank, I'm thinking I'm going to keep 4 but is 5 possible, my sandbed is 2 1/2 inches deep and I'm also planning on keeping a pair of bluethroats and a margined coralfish, so far there are no fish in the tank, but it is 6 months old and it's time to add some (of course not the wrasses or butterfly) I'm already set on this stock list so don't try to convince me to not get certain species, I think 4 is all i could do but I want to be sure. (This is a question for you @i cant think)

 

[Slocke]

For some context, I'm planning on keeping a harem of macropharyngodon meleagris in my 120 4 ft tank, I'm thinking I'm going to keep 4 but is 5 possible, my sandbed is 2 1/2 inches deep and I'm also planning on keeping a pair of bluethroats and a margined coralfish, so far there are no fish in the tank, but it is 6 months old and it's time to add some (of course not the wrasses or butterfly) I'm already set on this stock list so don't try to convince me to not get certain species, I think 4 is all i could do but I want to be sure. (This is a question for you @i cant think)

I can’t think is asleep so you’ll get one of his apprentices.
Don’t get the same species. Wrasse will change sex from female to male. It’s just a fact of wrasses. Once you get two males fights will start. If you want a group of leopards or fairies get different species. It’s so much easier and you’ll have great variety. Get a negrosensis, a bipartitus, an ornatus though honestly I’d still not get more than two leopards.
With the one cyanoguttatus get a lineatus, nahackyi, shutmani. Etc you don’t want to see what two cyanoguttatus will do to each other.

 

[Slocke]

All About Reef Safe Wrasses in Aquaria

Introduction My name is Hunter and I am a wrasse addict. Admitting such is the first step to buying another wrasse, I think. Wrasses are not only my passion, but my niche in this hobby since 2010. My tank is full of them, and unfortunately...

www.reef2reef.com

I also suggest you read this especially the section titled: About Mixing Species and Genera

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

I can’t think is asleep so you’ll get one of his apprentices.
Don’t get the same species. Wrasse will change sex from female to male. It’s just a fact of wrasses. Once you get two males fights will start. If you want a group of leopards or fairies get different species. It’s so much easier and you’ll have great variety. Get a negrosensis, a bipartitus, an ornatus though honestly I’d still not get more than two leopards.
With the one cyanoguttatus get a lineatus, nahackyi, shutmani. Etc you don’t want to see what two cyanoguttatus will do to each other.

Though the sex change only occurs in the most dominant of the group. I'm planning on getting 2in female juveniles and let them sort it out. Do you think there will still be trouble then?

 

[Slocke]

Though the sex change only occurs in the most dominant of the group. I'm planning on getting 2in female juveniles and let them sort it out. Do you think there will still be trouble then?

Sorry but it probably won't work:

About “Pairing” Wrasses, or Harems

In the wild, most genera of wrasses live in harems, which consists of a group of females to one dominant male. Often, there are a few transitional males in this group as well, which are essentially males-in-waiting – waiting for their chance to overtake the current or become the new dominant male. Within this harem, there is an established hierarchy; there are no bonded or mated relationships – it is all about the dominance of the terminal male and submission of the females and transitional males. This behavior is similar to that of anthias; wrasses do not “pair” like clown fish do.

In aquaria, it is rather difficult to successfully duplicate nature, in that all females tend to eventually transition to male, regardless of the presence of a more dominant male. Often, when this occurs in the presence of a dominant male, the new male may end up with best coloration. However, the survival of the old male is always questionable, and sometimes removal of one male becomes necessary for obvious aggression. For these reasons, I no longer bother with more than one specimen of a single species except in certain (rare) circumstances. I have attempted to keep a male/female pair/trio from the Cirrhilabrus, Halichoeres, and Paracheilinus genera, only to always result in all females turning to male with time.

Therefore, as an alternative to keeping pairs/trios/harems of wrasses in aquaria, an aquarist may wish to keep single specimens of each species mixed with others. So long as certain species are avoided, selections are made carefully, and in accords with the “About Mixing Species and Genera” section above, the results should be rewarding. Each specimen is highly likely to eventually transition to male, providing the best coloration. As an added bonus, the hierarchy of the group lends to displays of finnage and “flashing” of colors on frequent occasions for delightful viewing. However, the only catch with this approach is that some patience may be required. If specimens are purchased as juveniles or females, it may be a while before they transition into males. This time frame is widely variable, and depends not only on the fish’s age & maturity, but also the hierarchy established amongst the tank mates. In short, the timing is complicated, and may be as short as a few weeks to many, many months.

For more on “pairing”, see this article of mine (portions of the above are taken from here):
http://www.reef2reef.com/ams/pairing-wrasses-thats-not-how-any-of-this-works.3/

 

[Crabby48]

Though the sex change only occurs in the most dominant of the group. I'm planning on getting 2in female juveniles and let them sort it out. Do you think there will still be trouble then?

All fairy’s, Halichoeres and flashers will transition to male in captivity. Most leopards well but a few rare ones and even then it’s possible to get them to transition.
That said what do I know I can take a tiny wrasse and turn it make quick

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Sorry but it probably won't work:

About “Pairing” Wrasses, or Harems

In the wild, most genera of wrasses live in harems, which consists of a group of females to one dominant male. Often, there are a few transitional males in this group as well, which are essentially males-in-waiting – waiting for their chance to overtake the current or become the new dominant male. Within this harem, there is an established hierarchy; there are no bonded or mated relationships – it is all about the dominance of the terminal male and submission of the females and transitional males. This behavior is similar to that of anthias; wrasses do not “pair” like clown fish do.

In aquaria, it is rather difficult to successfully duplicate nature, in that all females tend to eventually transition to male, regardless of the presence of a more dominant male. Often, when this occurs in the presence of a dominant male, the new male may end up with best coloration. However, the survival of the old male is always questionable, and sometimes removal of one male becomes necessary for obvious aggression. For these reasons, I no longer bother with more than one specimen of a single species except in certain (rare) circumstances. I have attempted to keep a male/female pair/trio from the Cirrhilabrus, Halichoeres, and Paracheilinus genera, only to always result in all females turning to male with time.

Therefore, as an alternative to keeping pairs/trios/harems of wrasses in aquaria, an aquarist may wish to keep single specimens of each species mixed with others. So long as certain species are avoided, selections are made carefully, and in accords with the “About Mixing Species and Genera” section above, the results should be rewarding. Each specimen is highly likely to eventually transition to male, providing the best coloration. As an added bonus, the hierarchy of the group lends to displays of finnage and “flashing” of colors on frequent occasions for delightful viewing. However, the only catch with this approach is that some patience may be required. If specimens are purchased as juveniles or females, it may be a while before they transition into males. This time frame is widely variable, and depends not only on the fish’s age & maturity, but also the hierarchy established amongst the tank mates. In short, the timing is complicated, and may be as short as a few weeks to many, many months.

For more on “pairing”, see this article of mine (portions of the above are taken from here):
http://www.reef2reef.com/ams/pairing-wrasses-thats-not-how-any-of-this-works.3/

May have just started a war with the Wrasse lovers, looks like neither of us are going to win this argument lol. Though I do hear what you're saying, I do know a fair bit about wrasses myself (though I've never kept them in one of my tanks). Though don't macrophargyndon wrasses transition back to female in the presence of one or more dominant male? (I'm not trying to offend/insult your knowelage). I have talked to local hobbyists and LFS and they think that I can manage a harem in my tank, (what we can't agree on is how many can go in my tank, which is why I wrote this thread). And while this isn't one of my inital sources, I did find this Reef Builders article discussing same species macropharyngodon harems in aquaria.

Reef Nuggets 4: Macropharyngodon and notes on maintaining a harem | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

This is the fourth installation of a running series we call Reef Nuggets, a platform in which we share informative and useful tips on reef keeping in general. In this chapter we take a look at my…

reefbuilders.com

 

[i cant think]

For some context, I'm planning on keeping a harem of macropharyngodon meleagris in my 120 4 ft tank, I'm thinking I'm going to keep 4 but is 5 possible, my sandbed is 2 1/2 inches deep and I'm also planning on keeping a pair of bluethroats and a margined coralfish, so far there are no fish in the tank, but it is 6 months old and it's time to add some (of course not the wrasses or butterfly) I'm already set on this stock list so don't try to convince me to not get certain species, I think 4 is all i could do but I want to be sure. (This is a question for you @i cant think)

First off, this is a solid list. As for keeping a harem of Macropharyngodon meleagris it could go one way or another.

However if you want this to work then first off get a deeper sandbed, these guys will prefer a sand bed closer to 3-4”. Ideally a sandbed that covers the fish completely is best but as some can get incredibly fat, you’ll want to keep a deeper sandbed than you think.

Then, once it comes to the wrasses being introduced; Talk to the LFS and make sure they will take back the fish, I’d get it in writing even if you trust them personally that way the person who may be taking them back will have it as evidence and can’t say no. This is a failsafe, as said above wrasse harems usually fail in captivity as people forget about the 3 different phases of wrasse in the harem (‘Supermale’, Transitioning Male and Female/Juvenile). This is the case with almost all species - I have an exception in my own tank. And once they transition, they cannot turn back so they end up usually killing the ‘Supermale’ off, if the ‘Supermale’ doesn’t kill them first.

Sometimes two males will live in harmony if given enough territory, they don’t have females to fight over, and are fed enough. However once all of your females transition chances are you’ll be left with one male that won’t allow any other additions of leopards. The other thing that prevents fighting is usually through having more.

Which leads me to my next point of ‘how many’. Wrasses in harems behave much like Anthias as mentioned above. Now, this can mean that if you’re up for it you could have a group of 6-7 and possibly more. Going by we have the same size tank I know how many fish will generally push it over, now I’ve gotten a total of 15 (yes, you heard me, 15 fat and healthy fish that show minimal aggression). Considering a Margined Butterfly will get to about 7-8” that’s likely going to remove two extra slots for fish. Then the activity of your blue throat pair will also remove about 3-4 extra slots for fish. So that leads us to about 9 slots left. So if you wanted you could try a harem of 9 Meleagris and likely have more success as aggression will be spread out. Do I recommend it? That’s hard to answer, if you have an FTS then it’ll be easier to say if this should work or not.

The reason I won’t say ‘this 100% won’t work’ is because I’ve had cases and do still have fish that I was told ‘they’ll kill eachother off within a few months’ and both fish lived to their lifespan of 3-4 years. The other situation is still cohabitating and again, 4 years later is working out in my favour.

 

[Crabby48]

Check please

 

[Crabby48]

Meleagris has at least 50 percent chance to transition to male but hey what everyone know who studied and keeps them.
Bet a group of them the chance will be greater

 

[i cant think]

Meleagris has at least 50 percent chance to transition to male but hey what everyone know who studied and keeps them.
Bet a group of them the chance will be greater

Well, I mean the two Lubbock’s I had were said to kill eachother and they lived their full life in captivity. albeit I tend to feed quite a bit and I have plenty of territory for them.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Well, I mean the two Lubbock’s I had were said to kill eachother and they lived their full life in captivity. albeit I tend to feed quite a bit and I have plenty of territory for them.

Ah, you're here! Any advice on keeping macropharyngodon meleagris harems in captivity? Also how big is your tank/what does the aquascape look like? Thanks

 

[i cant think]

First off, this is a solid list. As for keeping a harem of Macropharyngodon meleagris it could go one way or another.

However if you want this to work then first off get a deeper sandbed, these guys will prefer a sand bed closer to 3-4”. Ideally a sandbed that covers the fish completely is best but as some can get incredibly fat, you’ll want to keep a deeper sandbed than you think.

Then, once it comes to the wrasses being introduced; Talk to the LFS and make sure they will take back the fish, I’d get it in writing even if you trust them personally that way the person who may be taking them back will have it as evidence and can’t say no. This is a failsafe, as said above wrasse harems usually fail in captivity as people forget about the 3 different phases of wrasse in the harem (‘Supermale’, Transitioning Male and Female/Juvenile). This is the case with almost all species - I have an exception in my own tank. And once they transition, they cannot turn back so they end up usually killing the ‘Supermale’ off, if the ‘Supermale’ doesn’t kill them first.

Sometimes two males will live in harmony if given enough territory, they don’t have females to fight over, and are fed enough. However once all of your females transition chances are you’ll be left with one male that won’t allow any other additions of leopards. The other thing that prevents fighting is usually through having more.

Which leads me to my next point of ‘how many’. Wrasses in harems behave much like Anthias as mentioned above. Now, this can mean that if you’re up for it you could have a group of 6-7 and possibly more. Going by we have the same size tank I know how many fish will generally push it over, now I’ve gotten a total of 15 (yes, you heard me, 15 fat and healthy fish that show minimal aggression). Considering a Margined Butterfly will get to about 7-8” that’s likely going to remove two extra slots for fish. Then the activity of your blue throat pair will also remove about 3-4 extra slots for fish. So that leads us to about 9 slots left. So if you wanted you could try a harem of 9 Meleagris and likely have more success as aggression will be spread out. Do I recommend it? That’s hard to answer, if you have an FTS then it’ll be easier to say if this should work or not.

The reason I won’t say ‘this 100% won’t work’ is because I’ve had cases and do still have fish that I was told ‘they’ll kill eachother off within a few months’ and both fish lived to their lifespan of 3-4 years. The other situation is still cohabitating and again, 4 years later is working out in my favour.

Here’s my answer to the question

As for how big my tank is I have a 4’x2’x18” tank. And here’s an FTS and Side on shot;

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Here’s my answer to the question

As for how big my tank is I have a 4’x2’x18” tank. And here’s an FTS and Side on shot;

Wait, 4ft by 2ft by 18 in? That's a 90 gallon?!?! You could have tricked me into thinking it's a 180! That's an impressive setup, though it is alot of fish... anyway, have any advice on meleagris leopard wrasse harems? Thanks again and, wow, that tank is beautiful

 

[i cant think]

Wait, 4ft by 2ft by 18 in? That's a 90 gallon?!?! You could have tricked me into thinking it's a 180! That's an impressive setup, though it is alot of fish... anyway, have any advice on meleagris leopard wrasse harems? Thanks again and, wow, that tank is beautiful

Well, it’ll get an upgrade at some point in the next year or less so maybe I’ll fool you into thinking its an 8’ tank haha.

As for advice on the harems, without an FTS of the tank it’ll be hard to say how many will be comfortable.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Well, it’ll get an upgrade at some point in the next year or less so maybe I’ll fool you into thinking its an 8’ tank haha.

As for advice on the harems, without an FTS of the tank it’ll be hard to say how many will be comfortable.

No problem, here are some photos

It's a 120 so 4' by 2' by 2', I have 5 large caves, its 6 months old so I'll probably not be getting the harem until december/January, starting to fill it out with coral, running an eshopps alpha fuge 200 and skimmer, stating up the refeugium when I get the fish, also the rock dosent look too established because for the majority of the setup there was no coral/cleanup crew and I started with dry rock, planning on doing 2 feedings a day and keeping easyreefs masstick in the tank as a constant food source (don't want that coralfish picking at my LPS)

 

[OrchidMiss]

Here’s my answer to the question

As for how big my tank is I have a 4’x2’x18” tank. And here’s an FTS and Side on shot;

Yep, need to completely redo all my rock and get more wrasse....
I want the iridis.

 

[jkcoral]

I kept a trio (well, two trios) of leopards around 2010 in a 150g display. The dimensions were 48”x30”x24” or so.

The first trio I got were all similar sized females. Things went well for a little while until a dispute started between two of them and things got nasty. Ended up splitting them up/rehoming them because it was quickly getting ugly, and even the more diminutive of the 3 was getting attacked badly.

So I tried again. This time by getting 2 small females, and waiting 3 weeks before adding another that was significantly larger. This one quickly asserted power and things were good until one of the 2 females started to turn and conflict started to develop. It doesn’t take long for things to get out of hand. And after a month or so of escalating violence I decided to give the transitioning to my father so that I didn’t end up with the alpha killing it, or the two fighting to the point they both succumb to stress and damage and die. The remaining male and female lived for around 6 years, and the female never transitioned.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my experience. I personally think there’s a good chance you’ll end up experiencing conflict. That being said, it used to be common to hear that leopards are less likely than other wrasses to transition if a dominant/super male is present. And I think you may have better chances if you were to add a larger/more developed specimen to a much smaller and similarly sized females.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Well, it’ll get an upgrade at some point in the next year or less so maybe I’ll fool you into thinking its an 8’ tank haha.

As for advice on the harems, without an FTS of the tank it’ll be hard to say how many will be comfortable.

Update photos (I moved the nemenzophyllia around)

What do you think will be comfortable in this tank with this aquascape, thanks for helping me out