How to create flow for a mini refugium

[RobertN]

Forget buying a used tank. you have no way what it was used for . Copper Chemicals reptile stuff ... No Thank You. Look at Petco for a dollar a gallon tank or find one from a reefer.Plumbing can be done a host of ways . Depending which way you go. A refuge needs low flow so it can work its magic on the water ...

If I get a used one from a reefer, you would agree that that's ok? Also, if I was just buying a glass tank and the stand with no rock, sand or other equipment, couldn't the tank be washed and cleaned thoroughly enough by me to avoid any chemical issues?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

unless its hot, id dump the chiller. you can add that later easier than plumbing a remote fuge by just putting a pump on the chiller hose and setting it next to the tank.

id get the plumbing a bit more simple in the sump and go from there. itll give ya time to shop for someting to hide the chiller.
i don't believe copper binds to glass. bleach kills bacteria.
if ya make room in the stand you can get an hob fuge or just build a better sump.

this might sound weird, but you can shut off the return pump and just keep the powerheads going while ya work on it. For days.
ya just need to aerate and have a heater in the tank.

K.I.S.S

 

[RobertN]

unless its hot, id dump the chiller. you can add that later easier than plumbing a remote fuge by just putting a pump on the chiller hose and setting it next to the tank.

id get the plumbing a bit more simple in the sump and go from there. itll give ya time to shop for someting to hide the chiller.
i don't believe copper binds to glass. bleach kills bacteria.
if ya make room in the stand you can get an hob fuge or just build a better sump.

K.I.S.S

Thanks! When you say "dump the chiller," you mean that as long as the room isn't too warm now, I should remove the chiller for the moment and don't connect it back up until later, after I've redone the sump plumbing, right?
Let me clarify at this point that I know little (or less) about plumbing, so I basically need to be given specific ideas with specific descriptions on what goes where and connects to what--that's why I haven't done anything to simplify the sump up till now and hence it looks as it does. There's a lot I've learned since I got somewhat thrown into the current situation I'm in with this tank/hobby, but there's so much about which I'm a noob whose just fallen off of the potato truck.
So when you suggest I make the sump plumbing more simple, do you have any specific suggestions in mind? Thx!
Robert

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks! When you say "dump the chiller," you mean that as long as the room isn't too warm now, I should remove the chiller for the moment and don't connect it back up until later, after I've redone the sump plumbing, right?
Let me clarify at this point that I know little (or less) about plumbing, so I basically need to be given specific ideas with specific descriptions on what goes where and connects to what--that's why I haven't done anything to simplify the sump up till now and hence it looks as it does. There's a lot I've learned since I got somewhat thrown into the current situation I'm in with this tank/hobby, but there's so much about which I'm a noob whose just fallen off of the potato truck.
So when you suggest I make the sump plumbing more simple, do you have any specific suggestions in mind? Thx!
Robert

lol. we all started some where.
basic sump. water is pumped up to tank. comes back down from tank to be filtered(by sock skimmer reactor,(or dosed, before going back up to the tank).
make a picture in your head of how easy that is even with no baffle and the skimmer and pump are in the same chamber.

where it comes down there is usually a baffel or the skimmer chamber. after the skimmer chamber the next baffle removes bubbles from the skimmer then into the pump chamber. two chamber sump(google image search.
sometimes a three chamber sump(search again)
all the reactors etc till ya get the hang of it just cloud up the works. you dont "NEED" them

You chiller is plumbed into the return to the tank from the pupm. (you can just go right up to the tank)
now if you put a second pump in the sump and connect it to the chiller and a hose from the chiller to the sump it will run all by itself adn not depend on the return pump.
probably the same for the racctor thingy in there now

Is that a reactor?
you can and I do just put carbon in bah next to the return pump. You dont NEED carbon gfo phosban etc, unless that's the nutrient export you choose. A refugium(like mine, Is excess nutrient export.

so when I say kiss, if you now pull all the junk out the way just go with the inlet and return.Sock is cool)

Now that that junk is gone you can see what will fit and how. if you have room with the sump now that you have and can make it work cool, if not maybe you can find build a sump thats better.

google image sumps thats how i learned.

anither VERY important thing is an ato. ususally located in the sump in one of the chambers the water level will change with evaporation. usually the middle. also the refugium chamber in may three chamber sumps.

Make sure you have a heater(winter is coming) i don't belive its getting hot soon, but i don't know where you live. (I do actually I work in burbank and live in san diego). Ya get my drift.

 

[RobertN]

Ok, so I do know enough to know the basic flow process and I've seen 2-part and 3-part sumps.
In my set-up (see my picture at bottom of first page of this thread), the tube coming off of the right side of my chiller is getting water pumped into it by the return pump in the sump (this water from the return pump is partially going back up to the DT and partially going into the chiller, split up by virtue of the "Y" connector sitting above the sump), correct? And the tube coming off the left side is returning water from the chiller back to the sump, correct?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yes. I believe that is correct.
I cant qute see all of it.

 

[RobertN]

Let me get this clarified.....a chiller has no pump inside it with which to move water, correct? It needs a pump outside of it to feed water into it, right?

 

[RobertN]

If that's correct, then the tube on the left side of chiller has to be feeding water into the sump from the chiller, because the end of that same tube (that is in the sump) has no pump attached to it (and let me say here that the flow out of it is very slow--I can barely feel any water movement, but I guess that's good because it allows the water in the chiller sufficient time to be in contact with the cooling element if the water needs to be cooled down). And the other tube on the right side of the chiller has to be receiving water, because it is attached to that "Y" connector that is getting water from a return pump within the sump--the return pump that is pushing water back up to the DT.

I do have a phosban reactor sitting on top of the chiller and I also have a recirculating biopellets reactor that you see in the front of the sump. I was having a lot of problems with high nitrates (40+) and high phosphate (2+) and it showed with my corals dying and doing very poorly (and who knows--the high nitrates may have contributed to some livestock that occasionally I would lose shortly after introduction to the DT). Since using the two reactors, my nitrates are down to 4-6 and phosphates almost at zero, and my corals now are starting to look much better.

I am really reticent to give up the reactors after seeing the problems I've had and the improvement since using them. And I have been wanting to get one or two types of Anthias, but I know that I will need to feed them at least twice a day. That's why I was thinking about some macro algae in a refugium or mini-refugium and some copepods as well.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Let me get this clarified.....a chiller has no pump inside it with which to move water, correct? It needs a pump outside of it to feed water into it, right?

im 99% sure that is correct. look up the chiller. it works more efficiently with the correct amount of flow in gph, yous may not have that.

(40+) and high phosphate (2+) and it showed with my corals dying

not necessarily true. system may be out of balance w light and nutrients, ive seen worse.

-the high nitrates may have contributed to some livestock that occasionally I would lose shortly after introduction to the DT

I doubt it. Always check ammonia. a bio pellet reactor with the incorrect flow may also produce sulfur.(rotten eggs) from bacteria die off. disease is always in question. And it did take me some time to get acclimation down pat,

Since using the two reactors, my nitrates are down to 4-6 and phosphates almost at zero, and my corals now are starting to look much better.

excellent.

I am really reticent to give up the reactors after seeing the problems I've had and the improvement since using them. And I have been wanting to get one or two types of Anthias, but I know that I will need to feed them at least twice a day. That's why I was thinking about some macro algae in a refugium or mini-refugium and some copepods as well.

very very good idea.
in some systems increased bacterial populations are used to reduce nutrients through skimming with bio pellets. a perfectly good strategy. I can get some folks who have insights into tht if youd like.
im a refugium guy. Pods will live of in just a DT. or rock in the sump.
also nothing wrong with an auto feeder in the day with QUALTY pellets and meaty food at night.

on fish. really QT is a good idea. Live rock small tank hob filter. observe. you never know where the fish has been.

what are your no and PO right now.

most folks, you may know, instead of Y's and tubes use a manifold and valve system.

 

[RobertN]

im 99% sure that is correct. look up the chiller. it works more efficiently with the correct amount of flow in gph, yous may not have that.

Yeah, I've been wondering if the flow through it is too weak.

not necessarily true. system may be out of balance w light and nutrients, ive seen worse.

Well, that's an interesting topic to me....and an intimidating one. As I've seen posted many times, it seems there are as many ways to make this work with a tank as there are hobbyists out there. And that makes it harder, not easier to know what you need to do if things are not working. But one thing I'm certain of--I had some seriously crappy lights up until recently. I started with a JBJ 28g nano cube with some insufficient advice from an LFS. A couple or so months later I met this guy through Craigslist who was selling equipment, fish and corals out of his garage in Santa Clarita (you said you don't know where I live--not too far from you--I'm in Porter Ranch, next to Northridge; I go out once in a while to Ultragem in your neck of the woods). My wife saw a 50g cube in his garage and she loved the look of it and was seriously asking him about the cost, as if she was ready to buy it (I was thinking, "Did an alien take over my wife's body, who is this person standing next to me?"). She didn't like the stand it was on, so she asked him about some other tanks and we eventually ended up with this 100g cube and the guy setting it up and doing service on it every 2 weeks. I eventually had a falling out with the guy and was suddenly put into the role of having to know a lot more than I did at the time (I had been doing a lot of reading and checking on things even while he was taking care of the tank, so I started to become aware of some things and that and a power strip failure while we were on a 4-day trip led to the falling out).
He had installed two ecoxotic light strips....one blue and one blue and white. Jeez were they crappy. I got two t-247 LED fixtures by Ocean Revive a few months ago.....actually from Ultragem when they were having a sale. I finally installed them a month or so back and it has made a big difference too. I'm hoping in the future to add an Aruba Sun retrofit dual t5 fixture from Hamilton Technology on each side of the LED's with a blue and actinic in each one.

I doubt it. Always check ammonia. a bio pellet reactor with the incorrect flow may also produce sulfur.(rotten eggs) from bacteria die off. disease is always in question. And it did take me some time to get acclimation down pat,

I have had the acclimation process down pretty good after learning the hard way and through some things I read on the forums. With the fish I've lost, it's been more after 2-3 weeks and the fish eating fine. And I went really slow with the biopellets process (and I lost fish well before that was introduced). It's possible that my female clown and/or the melanurus wrasse suddenly decided to be jerks. I've seen them go after a couple of fish right away in the past, but usually if they show no interest in a fish at the start of introduction, they don't appear to be doing any bullying with it. But who knows, maybe they change their minds sometimes. I do use an acclimation box for a few days before introducing new fish, to allow the new fish and the current ones to get comfortable with each other.....and I think it helps the new fish get the "smell" of the tank inundated on them, so that they are seen less as foreigners invading the space of the current residents.
I would like to set up a QT, but it's hard getting the wife to be ok with the idea of having another tank be put into service, even just periodically, not to mention trying to find a good place where there's space in our house


excellent.


very very good idea.
in some systems increased bacterial populations are used to reduce nutrients through skimming with bio pellets. a perfectly good strategy. I can get some folks who have insights into tht if youd like.
im a refugium guy. Pods will live of in just a DT. or rock in the sump.

Yeah, I like the idea of adding a refugium--particularly as I described above....where I have it outside of the stand cabinet, in plain view, with some attractive macro algae and anemones and a few interesting critters to watch. It can serve several good purposes. I tried populating the DT with copepods several times in the past, adding them numerous times at night--I even created a rubble pile in the back corner to help them have a safe place to reproduce. And for a few weeks, I even grew my own and added them regularly, because I had a ruby red dragonet that I was trying to make sure would survive (the LFS I bought him from showed me they had gotten it eating Cyclops, but I wasn't sure it would be able to survive with just that). But I think my Melanurus Wrasse was just doing too much eating of the copepods and reducing them to practically nothing during the course of each day. That's why I thought it would be good to try to keep the copepods going in a refugium, separate from the DT.
.
also nothing wrong with an auto feeder in the day with QUALTY pellets and meaty food at night.

Yeah, as long as I can make sure that the nitrates and phosphates don't get too high.....again, why I want to add the refugium with macro algae....and I figure that if the macro algae does too good of a job, I can turn down the biopellet reactor's output--it's a recirculating one, so it has valves that I can use to adjust the flow in and out of the reactor chamber.

on fish. really QT is a good idea. Live rock small tank hob filter. observe. you never know where the fish has been.

Yeah, as I said above, I do like the idea of it and have wanted to do that for quite a while......to help the new fish with less initial stress as well as treatment for parasites, if nothing else, and to protect the current fish in the DT from getting a disease.

what are your no and PO right now.

I haven't checked them recently--I'll check it tonight and let you know. I think they're pretty low--I can tell by how some of my corals look--I notice that the Euphyllia and Goniopora particularly show the effects of that right away in my tank.....they start retracting and shrinking up.

most folks, you may know, instead of Y's and tubes use a manifold and valve system.

Yeah, I've seen that manifold and valve system--it sounds very attractive, and looks that way too.....using less pumps/power, creating less heat in the water (by the way, you asked if I have a heater--I do.....had to get a new one recently since the one that the guy put in originally started to have problems), things looking neater/cleaner. So when you have a manifold system and you're using just one pump to push water through several devices via the manifold, am I correct in thinking you need a pretty powerful pump (i.e., a lot more expensive one) to be able to make that work with all of the resistance that must be present from the totality of each device being fed by just one source of propulsion?

Thanks for all of the input/advice!!!
Robert

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

am I correct in thinking you need a pretty powerful pump

yes, this is head loss. and you can calculate that. do you know the calculation for return rate? you may have plenty of power.

estimate total water vol x desired turnover rate = gph of pump needed
Mine
55 dt + 20 sump =75 x 10x = 750 gph pump............my ghp is higher as I like it like that, and my dc pump is turned way down.
manufacturers will usually light head loss on the pup specs.

I asked as some use a chiller to heat as well. like climate control. so they just leave it on all the time.

I have a dc4000 in my san diego tank. Its generally 77 in the house. my tank really never runs more than 77. not all pumps generate all that heat. imo ime but i have seen that if the pump works harder id does make more heat.

 

[RobertN]

So how do you determine what your desired turnover rate is? You've chosen 10x....what did you use to decide on that?

I do leave my chiller on all the time, but I suppose I don't need to.

Is the pump for the manifold set-up also typically being utilized for flow back to the DT in addition to supplying the various devices/reactors with flow?

 

[RobertN]

I don't even know what brand and model of return pump the one is that the guy who set up my tank put into my sump, so I don't know what it is rated (hell, I didn't even know what sort of lights he had put in for a fair while after we had the falling out and I didn't figure out what kind of protein skimmer he had put in until months later).

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So how do you determine what your desired turnover rate is? You've chosen 10x....what did you use to decide on that?

most use superstition and rumor. Honestly. theres id some pretty in depth math involved. when i set up my tank I used the recommended numbers, but they are or were for older styles of tank set ups. but i bought a non variable pump, it worked soo well, i never changed it. I allso use the return as a fair amount of my overall flow, so i have only two in tank powerheads. generally referred to as a closed loop system.
many believe a lower flow allows the skimmer more time pull particulates. i prefer the higher flow as i have aloght of filter feeders and it really seems to help my refugium, and keeps bugs in the dt for my mandarin and others.

Is the pump for the manifold set-up also typically being utilized for flow back to the DT in addition to supplying the various devices/reactors with flow?

yes. youd have to look around at set ups as im not experienced in those. Im a google image addict. you can also search them here Via google by adding r2r to any search term.

I don't even know what brand and model of return pump the one is that the guy who set up my tank put into my sump, so I don't know what it is rated (hell, I didn't even know what sort of lights he had put in for a fair while after we had the falling out and I didn't figure out what kind of protein skimmer he had put in until months later).

well thats a bummer. it might be on the pump next time you in there. if you put your hand in front of the retun in the tank and it gently blows or less iits low x. if you can def feel it its around 8 to 10.