Look I said its bad advice for a new person to test weekly. Thats what you said.
I would not start with AFR. Its different than 2 part. I have ran it before. Again start with 2 part is best, imo, to understand useage.
How to maintain stable alk
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Carbon dosing and refugium best way to return the base lost during nitrification. Have done both. In a non-coral test tank. I've maintained my dkh around 9 outside of periods where I purposely raised nitrates or tested kalk. Goal is to minimize alkalinity consumption to what corals need.
Reefering1
Valuable Member
I don't think your "experiments" should be touted as "the best way". You're mudding the waters. Someone just learning to dose alk/calcium should not be messing with carbon dosing to maintain alk. Sounds like a wrecked tank waiting to happen
A4R is a 1 part and is bacterial drivin so different than 2 part.
2 part gives you instant useage while A4R can tank 7-14 days to get alk stable. They both work but using a 2 part to start will help you understand you tanks daily useage.
It took 9 days before my alk stabilzed using A4R.
Dont make it harder than it needs to be when starting something new.
2 part gives you instant useage while A4R can tank 7-14 days to get alk stable. They both work but using a 2 part to start will help you understand you tanks daily useage.
It took 9 days before my alk stabilzed using A4R.
Dont make it harder than it needs to be when starting something new.
Dosing carbon less complicated then dosing alk/calcium. If you think dosing carbon isn't the best way then elaborate.
Reefering1
Valuable Member
Randy says 50ppm of nitrate amount to 2.3dkh, both ways. (pretty sure these numbers are accurate to what he said, but going off memory) . So most tanks will run out of nitrate for a small boost of alk. Likely resulting in starving corals and falling alk. I do carbon dose and think it's a very powerful tool but can be catastrophic in inexperienced hands
You're taking Randy literally yet doesn't seem you've actually confirmed what he's said. I've confirmed his writing by raising nitrates and seeing alk drop then rebound once carbon dosing bottom nitrates out. Why testing is crucial because one now obtains practice applied to theory. Thanks to Randy why I consider running my tests. Prior to speaking with him I thought only half the base returned. Seemed odd to me but recall reading that somewhere and it stuck with me. Why I question everything and keep an open mind to all new ideas.
As for the dangers of dosing anything it. Doesn't matter were it calcium or vodka. done incorrectly can either be catastrophic or cause other issues such as massive water changes to bring equilibrium if inhabitants lacking to consume excess. I've never believed reefing is for newbies or the inexperienced. Too many things can go wrong and posting questions on a forum isn't always going to fix therefore if one is going to dose calcium then not far fetched to assume they can handle learning how to dose carbon. There's literally charts that have been established long ago that can be followed or cheat as I do and use NoPox as recommended and I suggest starting at half dose. Fact is I feel I'm experienced enough to speak about such matters as dosing carbon because I've done some really crazy tests that I wouldn't suggest be done with anything sensitive life such as sticks. Honestly, how do you think most of what we do came to be if it weren't for someone running tests? Think about that before bashing me again.
Before you dismiss me to being ignorant and a mud slinger. Understand I've been at this long before most. My training comes from being in the business back in the 90s along with constant research since the 70s on all topics relating to keeping that which thrives in water. Many different things and different waters. Mostly from literature and discussions but I'm trying hard to catch up with practical actions and why I run tests. Spent a year as a side business at one of the first wholesalers to incorporate reef tanks. I recall some 21 or so 75 gallon tanks. Learned plenty. Questioned some of it that later came to be valid on my end.
Perhaps before you decide to dismiss me again as if I bring no value and inversely mostly detriment. First make sure you know what you speak of first hand vs quoting another as if those present credentials.
I stand wholeheartedly behind my statement of carbon dosing and refugiums to help stabilize alkalinity based on practical experience and not just that read. On a side note. Back in the day we thought highly of miracle mud. Some still do. Have plans to runs some tests with it. Mostly chits and giggles but might just be it actually - works. Know another well known in these circles that has been at it long before me who actually throws mud in his tank. Don't be so negative on muddying up the waters. Might be something to that.
twentyleagues
Valuable Member
AFR is the easiest way to handle your dosing. Understanding AFR is a little more difficult than 2 part. 2 part directly immediately (usually) changes parameters AFR takes about 24hrs to show the changes. Using AFR is about maintaining your levels and it may need to start with getting your parameters with in a range you want them to be via 2 part. This is what I did and it works great. You need to get a consumption rate you do this by testing daily at the same time for alk. You can test calcium every couple days to once a week. Once you see a trend adjust your parameters with 2 part get them to where you want them to be. Depending on what the current level is and the desired level you may need to do this over a couple days. You should not adjust alk more than 1.4dkh/ day and calcium more then 20ppm /day. Most are even more conservative with the alk at 1dkh/day. Once you understand the consumption trend and have the levels where you want them you can start AFR. Start with the lowest amount and test 24hrs later to see what happened if your levels are good then continue that dose if not adjust with 2 part and up the dose of afr. If its too much cut back some. Dose everyday at the same time and check every day at the same time. Lately I have been testing alk every 3 days and my levels are stable. I currently have little coralline growth but its starting so I will most likely need to start testing daily again.
Reefering1
Valuable Member
You seem to be a little confused. I spoke with nothing but respect. While I agree with much of what you're saying, I don't see the relevance to someone with their first acro frag wanting to learn about keeping parameters stable. So yes, mucking the waters(different than saying that you're slinging mud).This isn't a empty or freshly cycled tank.You're taking Randy literally yet doesn't seem you've actually confirmed what he's said. I've confirmed his writing by raising nitrates and seeing alk drop then rebound once carbon dosing bottom nitrates out. Why testing is crucial because one now obtains practice applied to theory. Thanks to Randy why I consider running my tests. Prior to speaking with him I thought only half the base returned. Seemed odd to me but recall reading that somewhere and it stuck with me. Why I question everything and keep an open mind to all new ideas.
As for the dangers of dosing anything it. Doesn't matter were it calcium or vodka. done incorrectly can either be catastrophic or cause other issues such as massive water changes to bring equilibrium if inhabitants lacking to consume excess. I've never believed reefing is for newbies or the inexperienced. Too many things can go wrong and posting questions on a forum isn't always going to fix therefore if one is going to dose calcium then not far fetched to assume they can handle learning how to dose carbon. There's literally charts that have been established long ago that can be followed or cheat as I do and use NoPox as recommended and I suggest starting at half dose. Fact is I feel I'm experienced enough to speak about such matters as dosing carbon because I've done some really crazy tests that I wouldn't suggest be done with anything sensitive life such as sticks. Honestly, how do you think most of what we do came to be if it weren't for someone running tests? Think about that before bashing me again.
Before you dismiss me to being ignorant and a mud slinger. Understand I've been at this long before most. My training comes from being in the business back in the 90s along with constant research since the 70s on all topics relating to keeping that which thrives in water. Many different things and different waters. Mostly from literature and discussions but I'm trying hard to catch up with practical actions and why I run tests. Spent a year as a side business at one of the first wholesalers to incorporate reef tanks. I recall some 21 or so 75 gallon tanks. Learned plenty. Questioned some of it that later came to be valid on my end.
Perhaps before you decide to dismiss me again as if I bring no value and inversely mostly detriment. First make sure you know what you speak of first hand vs quoting another as if those present credentials.
I stand wholeheartedly behind my statement of carbon dosing and refugiums to help stabilize alkalinity based on practical experience and not just that read. On a side note. Back in the day we thought highly of miracle mud. Some still do. Have plans to runs some tests with it. Mostly chits and giggles but might just be it actually - works. Know another well known in these circles that has been at it long before me who actually throws mud in his tank. Don't be so negative on muddying up the waters. Might be something to that.
And yes, when @Randy Holmes-Farley gives a equation I assume it's right. This is chemistry after all. If your credentials outweighed his, your name would be in the chemistry forum,.
All that said, I have mud on the bottom if my refugium, carbon dose, and still have to dose alk to maintain numbers. I never said you are wrong, just saying it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Please explain
I don't agree it's irrelevant. My recommendation works. I'm sticking to my recommendation.
Never claimed to know more than Randy. Go back and perhaps read that again. Might also perhaps consider the sarcasm likely present in anything I've wrote vs accepting it all as literal. I know. That's irritating but that's how I talk. The Jersey/NY in me won't let go.
Nate Chalk
7500 Club Member
I use all for reef. Where does it state bacterial driven?
Reefering1
Valuable Member
So, if someone looking to maintain parameters... how is"refugium and carbon dosing" going to help? Maybe I'm just oblivious and don't even know itI don't agree it's irrelevant. My recommendation works. I'm sticking to my recommendation.
Never claimed to know more than Randy. Go back and perhaps read that again. Might also perhaps consider the sarcasm likely present in anything I've wrote vs accepting it all as literal. I know. That's irritating but that's how I talk. The Jersey/NY in me won't let go.
Because if you stabilize the base lost to nitrification then the rest becomes easier to apply. For example, AFR as suggested by Lou should be added based on calcium consumption since all other parameters are established based on it's consumption. Mentions adding buffer as that might deplete faster yet likely that depletion due to nitrification. Hence, my approach to first stabilize that loss of base as it makes all other adjustments easier. Any and all water changes will alter this since one is throwing that base out literally with the bath water vs letting the system reclaim it.
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twentyleagues
Valuable Member
It is. I dont have a can in front of me but it is calcium Formate (sp). Bacteria need to break that down to "release" the alk to make it "usable" by the reef. You can also tell I am not a chemist.....lol. That is "how" it works.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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There are many ways to supplement calcium and alkalinity. None is best and all methods have pros and cons.
bobnicaragua
Well-Known Member
The op has 1 acro frag in a 90 gallon tank.
Suggesting carbon dosing and starting a fuge to maintain alk is way over the top.
Honestly, water changes are probably enough at this point.
Suggesting carbon dosing and starting a fuge to maintain alk is way over the top.
Honestly, water changes are probably enough at this point.
OP
OP
To be fully up front about what all is the tank that may be using up calcium and alkalinity, I have the one SPS, 2 Favia, several soft corals ( I know they don’t use calcium), a ton of spirorbid worms, a ton of tube worms, quite a bit of coralline algae, a chunk cleaner shrimp, 3 pitho crabs, way too many snails to count. I think that is all on that front. So, I am going to go with X37B’s suggestion and check my numbers over about a week, daily so I can understand what my tank uses. I can not say enough how much I appreciate everyone chiming in on this to help a newbie to SPS’s out. To be honest, if it were not a gift, I would probably never have gotten one, because their care makes me nervous.
I dose AFR manually once a day. There are very clear instructions (you start with x mL per gallon of water) and go up a little bit until your system equilibrates and you don't see changes. It works so well that I don't really test the systems that are not connected to my Trident anymore unless I'm adding lots of frags at a time. I test once every 2-3 weeks and everything is rock solid.
Hopefully that statement will make it live for years lol.
I dose 1 tank with AFR, one ESV 2 part and I just tore down my 180g that ran on kalk only. All started on 2 part. My new tank started with alk of 10.7. I'm letting it slowly drop on its own then I will start it on 2 part. I prefer 8-9 dkh. Kalk is easy and cheap but you have to have a reservoir and pump unless you use the ATO which I found to be too inconsistent. Also you can not dose more than the evaporation rate unless you dose a slurry or reactor. I have no experience with either. I manually dosed 2 part to all of my tanks for a year or longer before adding dosers. Manual dosing if consumption is low works fine but I started having trouble remembering if I did or didn't so I added the dosers. Like Randy said there are many ways with none being right or wrong. I'll most likely switch everything to AFR at some point. The tank that I have been using it on has been very stable as far as alk is concerned. I vote start with 2 part and switch to AFR later if you want.
twentyleagues
Valuable Member
I have the same memory issues. Did I dose I think I did hmmm. So I set up a "system" if my mixed afr is on the table I dosed if its on the shelf I need to dose. I put the afr back on the shelf in the morning while I am having coffee....or did I forget to? Oh man! Getting old is not for the weak. lol.
You almost have to start with 2 part when using AFR. You need to be at your target parameters and that is the easiest way (at least for me) to do it. It also helps to have some on hand if you decide to or need to bump a parameter. AFR will from what I have seen keep your parameters stable but if consumption goes up its not as easy to get it back where you need/want them. Having 2 part on hand is nice especially starting out with AFR.
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