How To Plan a Livestock List

[melypr1985]

You had me till right here. I applaud your post about being ready for the hobby. However; instead of advising people on how to plan around the fish they want. I think it's your obligation to advise them on planning around how much money they are looking to spend for start up. I saw where you said a 55 gallon is "pretty darn small". Maybe it is small for you. But I have kept a 60 gallon for over two years and you know what's not small. The bleeping price tag!! I've spent a lot of money! Most of it was me bargain shopping and I'm still in over my head financially! I can't imagine what you think is "big" ends up costing people. You must make like $100 dollars an hour at your job based on your perspective of "big and small" in the salt hobby.

This article wasn't meant to talk about price or how to afford the hobby. The whole thing is from a stocking perspective. There are a whole bunch of fish you can keep in a biocube and make it amazing! Most people get in because they want the big flashy stuff however, so that's where I advise they start.... at the fish. If a person can't afford the tank that is required to keep the fish they absolutely have to have, then it would be up to them to either find a new favorite fish or start saving. That's not what my article was about though, it was simply how to get the right fish together in the right tank. And yes, a 55 gallon is very small indeed when we are looking at getting tangs and angels or other large fish that just won't fit in there.

Oh and I don't make $100 an hour, but I consider my job priceless and would do it for less than what they do pay me. (just don't tell them that lol)

 

[Phil Cusimano]

How To Plan a Livestock List

The very best way to select the fish you will keep in your tank is to start well before you even purchase a tank. Wait. What? I don’t even have a tank yet and you want me to start selecting fish?! Quite simply, yes I do.

In this hobby, a very good portion of the fish we keep require special needs for their care. The biggest of which is ROOM. Room to swim, to exercise, to call territory. Tangs are among the most popular fish to keep in the saltwater world and they need lots of room to swim. Schools of fish need plenty of room to swim as well especially since a good portion of them get quite large.

(photo credit Watchguy123)

Everyone in this hobby saw something they just had to have. For some, that thing was a fish and for others it was a coral. Maybe it was the whole package, but after looking around at pictures and other people’s tanks they fell in love with something specific. To have the best chance at success I would suggest looking at that one thing. For this article we will look at that one fish you just have to have. The one that you decided to start a saltwater tank for. The fish that you will design your whole tank and it’s other occupants around. What are the care requirements for it? Does it need a six-foot tank or longer? Or maybe it needs to have strong currents to swim in? Is a very tall tank required for mating rituals? Or perhaps it needs to have a secure cover, deep sand bed, open spaces around the rocks? Does it need a small tank with peaceful tankmates? There are any number of things that this fish might need to live a long and happy life in your care.

So, have you picked it yet? Think real hard. Look around and make sure to check out the pricing. If your pick something you can never afford, then you may want to pick something else. Got it? OK! Let’s say that the fish you absolutely had to have is a sting ray. Whoa baby that’s quite a choice! So you do your research and discover that these guys need a large tank, with plenty of room to roam the sand. Too much rock will cause issues and may even injure the ray. Now you know how big of a tank you need. Now we look at what kind of fish and inverts (if any) can go with a ray. Now which of those can live in a tank with open spaces and minimal rock to hide in? When you look through that list, is that a list you like? Is it worth it to you to be limited in such a way? Did you really want a ray that badly? No? Let’s move on.



Now you’ve picked that Blue Hippo tang that your daughter just has to have. What wouldn’t we do for our kids right? We do a quick search and see that they get up to a foot in length, need lots of length to swim. That 75 gallon tank you were looking at on Craigslist isn’t quite going to cut it. Oh boy, this is pretty hard.

Let’s do one more. Let’s say you saw a Yasha Haze Goby and pistol shrimp pair and just had to have it. You’re buying a tank just so you can have that one fish and his little buddy. We do our research and find that this fish might get lost in that 180 gallon tank and never be seen. Those triggers you were eyeing as well might eat the pistol shrimp and maybe even make a snack out of your prized goby. He needs fine sand and peaceful tankmates. We start looking at the fish that would be able to thrive in a tank with the goby and we see things like firefish, other gobies, clownfish, some wrasses. All of these need a tight fitting lid to prevent jumping.

(photo credit: BeakerBob)

Going this route to plan your fish list, you can come up with a solid plan for the tank you need to buy, the equipment you need for the tank and a solid list of fish that will not only live together, but thrive together. Getting on your favorite forum (ehem R2R) and asking about other people’s experiences mixing certain fish on your list will help you gain more insight into how your list will fit together. You won’t find yourself asking the local fish store employee “well what can I put in my tank?” or being disappointed when the fish you brought home suddenly killed several of your fish or got stressed and died. You’ll be prepared for each trip to the store, or each login to the online vendor, knowing exactly what you’re looking for and what will and won’t get along with your favorite fish and the tank you need to keep it.

Happy Reefing!

Awesome article! Nothing like making a species of fish like Sunburst Anthias as your focal point,and not being able to meet their care requirements, or an incompatibility fish to watch them get picked off and become a very expense lunch indeed! Well done 5 Stars! Plan ahead and accordingly!

 

[Geno]

"Big" and "small" tanks in this hobby may seem relative to your bank account, but I think the OP was referring to size relative to the room needed to successfully keep most of the saltwater fish found in this hobby (which seems to make sense from the context of the post, and I think is far more pertinent to this discussion). Her point was that a 55g tank is small in that it seriously limits what fish you can keep (no "Dory" for a 55g). From that perspective, the label of "small" makes total sense.

I agree that a customer should count the cost before buying a tank and the equipment and supplies to run it (not to mention the livestock). But isn't that basic wisdom? Shouldn't the average customer be wise enough to count the costs on purchases (whether hobby-related or not) and to do their due diligence to know what is involved in a basic saltwater setup? It's not the OP's "obligation" to make sure someone makes the responsible decision to investigate the costs of a venture before launching into it. However, it seems she did caution the reader of the need to be budget savvy when she said:



Btw, "large" aquariums in this hobby are generally rated at 180+ gallons. Call that an "opinion" if you want, but it's the general consensus and I assume the base that the OP was operating from.

Whatever you consider large is your own opinion of course. Not fact! I disagree about price not being relative to this discussion. It's a very important point to talk price! And no sir. It's not basic wisdom. We can assume the customer has done enough research about the hobby to know what they are getting themselves into. However; if a customer doesn't know enough to not put a "Dory fish" in a 30 gallon, there is no way they have done enough homework to understand the cost. This post does make sense. It was an enjoyable read. I take no issue with the points made. However; sweeping the actual "cost" (dollars and cents) under the rug, makes this post one sided is all. Good info was given about "space". 0 info was given about "cost". If you think price doesn't come into this discussion then you're missing the whole picture about making a good plan in this hobby. If I'm a local fish tank store worker/owner. Then I'm selling the 30's 55's and under 100gallons all day long to make a profit. Let not confuse business with pleasure. Let's talk prices. Then talk possibilities.

 

[Geno]

This article wasn't meant to talk about price or how to afford the hobby. The whole thing is from a stocking perspective. There are a whole bunch of fish you can keep in a biocube and make it amazing! Most people get in because they want the big flashy stuff however, so that's where I advise they start.... at the fish. If a person can't afford the tank that is required to keep the fish they absolutely have to have, then it would be up to them to either find a new favorite fish or start saving. That's not what my article was about though, it was simply how to get the right fish together in the right tank. And yes, a 55 gallon is very small indeed when we are looking at getting tangs and angels or other large fish that just won't fit in there.

Oh and I don't make $100 an hour, but I consider my job priceless and would do it for less than what they do pay me. (just don't tell them that lol)

Lol. Your secret is safe with me. I just wish someone would have informed me about cost than helping me plan the livestock and possibilities for my size tank I wanted. Sure. There are cheaper options out there for equipment. But these cheaper options yeild poor results and limited success. Had I know that I would spend $2000 on pumps, lights, controllers, sump, skimmer, water jugs, filter media, general maintenance, etc etc. This info would have either changed my mind or refocused my decision on the actual possibilities. I enjoyed your knowledge and it is great info for the new hobbiest. Next time tho. Maybe Mention the high costs of quality equipment needed for scale too. Keep up the good work and passion for your craft!

 

[melypr1985]

Lol. Your secret is safe with me. I just wish someone would have informed me about cost than helping me plan the livestock and possibilities for my size tank I wanted. Sure. There are cheaper options out there for equipment. But these cheaper options yeild poor results and limited success. Had I know that I would spend $2000 on pumps, lights, controllers, sump, skimmer, water jugs, filter media, general maintenance, etc etc. This info would have either changed my mind or refocused my decision on the actual possibilities. I enjoyed your knowledge and it is great info for the new hobbiest. Next time tho. Maybe Mention the high costs of quality equipment needed for scale too. Keep up the good work and passion for your craft!

Maybe I'll do an article on "the real cost of owning a saltwater aquarium" that will cover that part of the hobby. My customers at the store do get an earful on the cost of everything involved. In this article I chose not to focus on that. In real life I do actually walk them through everything they will need and what that might cost- but that's after I ask them what they are wanting to keep as far as fish and corals. Because you wont know the cost until you figure out what fish you want and what they need. So, this is the first step in planning your tank and your stock list. You just have to take it to the next step in figuring out how big a dent it's going to put in the budget.
Thanks for reading

 

[Phil Cusimano]

Whatever you consider large is your own opinion of course. Not fact! I disagree about price not being relative to this discussion. It's a very important point to talk price! And no sir. It's not basic wisdom. We can assume the customer has done enough research about the hobby to know what they are getting themselves into. However; if a customer doesn't know enough to not put a "Dory fish" in a 30 gallon, there is no way they have done enough homework to understand the cost. This post does make sense. It was an enjoyable read. I take no issue with the points made. However; sweeping the actual "cost" (dollars and cents) under the rug, makes this post one sided is all. Good info was given about "space". 0 info was given about "cost". If you think price doesn't come into this discussion then you're missing the whole picture about making a good plan in this hobby. If I'm a local fish tank store worker/owner. Then I'm selling the 30's 55's and under 100gallons all day long to make a profit. Let not confuse business with pleasure. Let's talk prices. Then talk possibilities.

Geno: It all depends on how you define cost? Anyone getting into the marine aquarium hobby can figure out the monetary cost. When I think of cost ... I think of the health of the marine critter ... be it fish or coral. Let's say the fish you must have are a trio of Sunburst Anthias At $90 a pop, a total of $270. You're not meeting one of their major requirement "space" you can't simply stick them in a 70g reef tank that would be detrimental to the Anthias well-being they'll get stress out in tight quarters and perish, but put that same trio in a 120g aquarium, which is what I would consider the minimum space require and they'll be much happier! Again, it all depends on how you define cost don't you think! My Philosophy has always been if you can't keep a fish to grow to max size it shouldn't be in your aquarium. So the author has many valid points! That's my 2 cents for what it's worth!

 

[Phil Cusimano]

Maybe I'll do an article on "the real cost of owning a saltwater aquarium" that will cover that part of the hobby. My customers at the store do get an earful on the cost of everything involved. In this article I chose not to focus on that. In real life I do actually walk them through everything they will need and what that might cost- but that's after I ask them what they are wanting to keep as far as fish and corals. Because you wont know the cost until you figure out what fish you want and what they need. So, this is the first step in planning your tank and your stock list. You just have to take it to the next step in figuring out how big a dent it's going to put in the budget.
Thanks for reading

GO for it!

 

[Geno]

Maybe I'll do an article on "the real cost of owning a saltwater aquarium" that will cover that part of the hobby. My customers at the store do get an earful on the cost of everything involved. In this article I chose not to focus on that. In real life I do actually walk them through everything they will need and what that might cost- but that's after I ask them what they are wanting to keep as far as fish and corals. Because you wont know the cost until you figure out what fish you want and what they need. So, this is the first step in planning your tank and your stock list. You just have to take it to the next step in figuring out how big a dent it's going to put in the budget.
Thanks for reading

Awesome! That's perfect! I'm currently abandoning the hobby due to price alone. I'm a slight bit bitter about it. I know the cost to make some of these poweheads don't come close to matching the actual price they ask. I am officially over it because of this. It's cheaper to buy pool tables, the Best home PC, redo a room in the house than it is to own a darn small 55 g. Lol. There is something wrong with that. Plus if I spend another dime on this tank, I'm going to need a divorce lawyer. Lol. I joke but it is truth!!

 

[Geno]

Geno: It all depends on how you define cost? Anyone getting into the marine aquarium hobby can figure out the monetary cost. When I think of cost ... I think of the health of the marine critter ... be it fish or coral. Let's say the fish you must have are a trio of Sunburst Anthias At $90 a pop, a total of $270. You're not meeting one of their major requirement "space" you can't simply stick them in a 70g reef tank that would be detrimental to the Anthias well-being they'll get stress out in tight quarters and perish, but put that same trio in a 120g aquarium, which is what I would consider the minimum space require and they'll be much happier! Again, it all depends on how you define cost don't you think! My Philosophy, has always been if you can keep a fish to grow to max size it should be in your aquarium. So the author has many valid points! That's my 2 cents for what it's worth!

I define cost on a relative basis. My cost was and is not about livestock. It's about equipment. Lighting. Flow. Filtration. Etc. doesn't matter if your one fish had 180 gallons of water to swim in if there is no surface agitation and nitrate levels that are toxic. So cost is relative to health in that sense. Don't you think?

 

[Brew12]

Awesome! That's perfect! I'm currently abandoning the hobby due to price alone. I'm a slight bit bitter about it. I know the cost to make some of these poweheads don't come close to matching the actual price they ask. I am officially over it because of this. It's cheaper to buy pool tables, the Best home PC, redo a room in the house than it is to own a darn small 55 g. Lol. There is something wrong with that. Plus if I spend another dime on this tank, I'm going to need a divorce lawyer. Lol. I joke but it is truth!!

I understand completely! I remember seeing an article recently discussing the costs of something along the lines of a 150 gallon reef system. I don't remember the exact numbers but I want to say one publication put the total cost around $25k and the counter argument (using mostly used equipment) put it around $3k.
There are so many option on equipment. Not even just new and used. There are plenty of cheap powerheads on the market but when you look at the cost of the livestock it is understandable why some people don't want to rely on them. That holds true for much of the equipment in this hobby.

I'm sorry you are getting out of the hobby. I am very glad you have your priorities where they are. I wouldn't keep my tank if it was going to put a stress on my marriage, either!

 

[melypr1985]

Awesome! That's perfect! I'm currently abandoning the hobby due to price alone. I'm a slight bit bitter about it. I know the cost to make some of these poweheads don't come close to matching the actual price they ask. I am officially over it because of this. It's cheaper to buy pool tables, the Best home PC, redo a room in the house than it is to own a darn small 55 g. Lol. There is something wrong with that. Plus if I spend another dime on this tank, I'm going to need a divorce lawyer. Lol. I joke but it is truth!!

It's definitely not for the faint of heart. The start up cost is considerable. I'm sorry you found this out the hard way and I'm sorry it's pushing you out of the hobby. Family always comes first though, so that's a decision I can totally get behind.

 

[Geno]

I understand completely! I remember seeing an article recently discussing the costs of something along the lines of a 150 gallon reef system. I don't remember the exact numbers but I want to say one publication put the total cost around $25k and the counter argument (using mostly used equipment) put it around $3k.
There are so many option on equipment. Not even just new and used. There are plenty of cheap powerheads on the market but when you look at the cost of the livestock it is understandable why some people don't want to rely on them. That holds true for much of the equipment in this hobby.

I'm sorry you are getting out of the hobby. I am very glad you have your priorities where they are. I wouldn't keep my tank if it was going to put a stress on my marriage, either!

Exactly man. I don't like to do things halfway. I like to go big. Yes. It has put stress on my marriage in a financial way. My wife loves it. My kids love it. It's great stress relief. But punching bags are waaaaay cheaper! Lol. And rasing children under the right conditions can be very costly too. Trust me. I want a 180 gallon set up with all the fish I ever wanted and corals to boot. But I simply can't afford it.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Whatever you consider large is your own opinion of course. Not fact! I disagree about price not being relative to this discussion. It's a very important point to talk price! And no sir. It's not basic wisdom. We can assume the customer has done enough research about the hobby to know what they are getting themselves into. However; if a customer doesn't know enough to not put a "Dory fish" in a 30 gallon, there is no way they have done enough homework to understand the cost. This post does make sense. It was an enjoyable read. I take no issue with the points made. However; sweeping the actual "cost" (dollars and cents) under the rug, makes this post one sided is all. Good info was given about "space". 0 info was given about "cost". If you think price doesn't come into this discussion then you're missing the whole picture about making a good plan in this hobby. If I'm a local fish tank store worker/owner. Then I'm selling the 30's 55's and under 100gallons all day long to make a profit. Let not confuse business with pleasure. Let's talk prices. Then talk possibilities.

Just a couple of counterpoints: 1) I said that the size categories are a matter of general consensus (this means that it is a FACT that this is the general opinion of hobbyists). However, I think we're actually in agreement on the point which is that having the appropriately sized tank (and I agree that should also include the proper equipment) is necessary to the health of keeping fish that have been selected.
2) I never said cost was not important in this discussion. What I said was that in the discussion of tank sizes, talking size based on price is less important than talking size based on the fish one wants to keep...price will be a point to consider, but it should only be considered in the context of what is going in the tank. If I can't keep the fish I want in the tank that I buy (regardless of if I think the price tag reflects a "big" tank or not), then it was pointless to spend the money (I think we actually agree on these points for the most part). I actually prefer the OP's idea that a person should first decide what they want, and THEN check the cost to see if they can afford it (she made that point in the article). If a person can't afford it, then they will have to go through a process of determining what they can afford to get closest to what they want and whether or not that is an investment they want to make (again, this is a point made in the article).

I think ultimately we're probably (mostly) in agreement on the important points. I'm sorry that you're having to leave the hobby. It does require a serious budget allocation if one is going to keep a thriving reef. Costs do go up with the size of the tank. There are budget conscious options, but it ultimately will depend on balancing what a person wants to attain and what they can afford. I can absolutely respect the decision you make to say "enough is enough" in your situation.

 

[Geno]

Just a couple of counterpoints: 1) I said that the size categories are a matter of general consensus (this means that it is a FACT that this is the general opinion of hobbyists). However, I think we're actually in agreement on the point which is that having the appropriately sized tank (and I agree that should also include the proper equipment) is necessary to the health of keeping fish that have been selected.
2) I never said cost was not important in this discussion. What I said was that in the discussion of tank sizes, talking size based on price is less important than talking size based on the fish one wants to keep...price will be a point to consider, but it should only be considered in the context of what is going in the tank. If I can't keep the fish I want in the tank that I buy (regardless of if I think the price tag reflects a "big" tank or not), then it was pointless to spend the money (I think we actually agree on these points for the most part). I actually prefer the OP's idea that a person should first decide what they want, and THEN check the cost to see if they can afford it (she made that point in the article). If a person can't afford it, then they will have to go through a process of determining what they can afford to get closest to what they want and whether or not that is an investment they want to make (again, this is a point made in the article).

I think ultimately we're probably (mostly) in agreement on the important points. I'm sorry that you're having to leave the hobby. It does require a serious budget allocation if one is going to keep a thriving reef. Costs do go up with the size of the tank. There are budget conscious options, but it ultimately will depend on balancing what a person wants to attain and what they can afford. I can absolutely respect the decision you make to say "enough is enough" in your situation.

Don't want to argue. You make valid points. And yes sir. Enough is enough. The price of some of the cutting edge equipment out there, is insane, When you consider what it actually costs to make. I'm bitter because I seriously didn't understand what it would ultimately cost because nobody taught me that. I thought (fish tank, that seems cost effective, as I have had successful fresh water tanks growing up) I thought salt was a logical next step for me. I did learn a wealth of information, much like that which was in this post, when it comes to planning. I jumped onto my soapbox about cost, having heard this speech before. Forgive me for getting off on a "cost" tangent. This post is very informative to the beginning hobbyist.

 

[Phil Cusimano]

I define cost on a relative basis. My cost was and is not about livestock. It's about equipment. Lighting. Flow. Filtration. Etc. doesn't matter if your one fish had 180 gallons of water to swim in if there is no surface agitation and nitrate levels that are toxic. So cost is relative to health in that sense. Don't you think?

I'm not saying you don't have valid points at all ... But the read wasn't about equipment or fish cost, that was not the author's intent. In large part, everything ties together. I certainly don't disagree with you at all when it comes to the cost of the equipment, FWIW & IMHO the cost of the hobby is astronomical especially when it comes to equipment, manufacturers could lower their prices and make up for it on sales by volume instead ... but they chose not to do that they want to recover their R & D cost immediately. So you won't get an argument from me on this issue. I'm putting together 120g aquarium the expected cost of the must need equipment is close to $6,000 not including Cabinet, canopy and livestock ... and I'm not buy all high end products either. I feel your pain! FWIW

 

[mcarroll]

Lol. Your secret is safe with me. I just wish someone would have informed me about cost than helping me plan the livestock and possibilities for my size tank I wanted. Sure. There are cheaper options out there for equipment. But these cheaper options yeild poor results and limited success. Had I know that I would spend $2000 on pumps, lights, controllers, sump, skimmer, water jugs, filter media, general maintenance, etc etc. This info would have either changed my mind or refocused my decision on the actual possibilities. I enjoyed your knowledge and it is great info for the new hobbiest. Next time tho. Maybe Mention the high costs of quality equipment needed for scale too. Keep up the good work and passion for your craft!

This is one of the many proofs of the "go slow; nothing good happens fast" rule of reefing. No surprises when you start slow vs trying to jump in with both feet first.

 

[Geno]

This is one of the many proofs of the "go slow; nothing good happens fast" rule of reefing. No surprises when you start slow vs trying to jump in with both feet first.

I did go slow. What I'm saying is I had no idea that costs were going to be that high. I didn't buy it all in one day lol. It was gradual. And after adding up all the receipts. I was dumbfounded by what I had actually spent. I saved for each piece. Started small. Worked my way up. I made plenty of "rushed" mistakes that I learned from. But my livestock never suffered. My wallet did.

 

[mcarroll]

Well, not to be critical of any move you made, as I'm sure you were doing the absolute best you could.....but I think as a hobby we need to start defining what it really means to "go slow".

For example, I've been thinking that one or two fish per year might be fast enough. I wouldn't expect you or anyone to be going that slow at this point because not too many really think on that scale. But it would surely yield better results and better reefers.

 

[melypr1985]

To get this back on topic I'll give an example:
I've always wanted an Achilles Tang. Of course, when I was gifted a 75 gallon tank I thought "yeah! I can finally do it!" I upgraded everything from my 40 gallon to the 75 and started doing research. Come to find out the Achilles tang needs quite a bit more room to roam than a 75 will provide. I spent a lot of time and money on my 75 getting it nice, all the while knowing that I was going to upgrade to something bigger. Everything I purchased is able to be moved over to the new 180- that was planning and a bit of luck. Had I did my research on the Achilles Tang first, I probably would have waited -and saved- a bit longer and skipped the 75 all together.

Another: I had a customer come in the store and tell me they had a 55 gallon reef tank. They had a pair of clownfish and some cardinals and wanted to add a tang. They told me literally "I have a huge tank. I want to add a Dory." They were quite frustrated with me when I explained that they shouldn't put any tangs in a 55 gallon tank. I told them they could always upgrade to accommodate the tangs they wanted, but of course that adds the frustration. I spent a long time showing them options that would fit their current livestock and the tank size, but they weren't really happy with any of them. If they had decided that they wanted the dory first and researched it's requirements, they would have (hopefully) gotten the appropriate sized tank and walked out of the shop happy as clams.

Point: Figure out what you want the end product to be and figure out what you need to make that happen. If you want sharks and rays, then research them and figure out what other fish can go with them. Then figure out how large a tank they need along with filtration requirements. Is that something you still want to do? Is it going to match your dream? Then do it! Research is the key ladies and gents.

 

[Phil Cusimano]

I did go slow. What I'm saying is I had no idea that costs were going to be that high. I didn't buy it all in one day lol. It was gradual. And after adding up all the receipts. I was dumbfounded by what I had actually spent. I saved for each piece. Started small. Worked my way up. I made plenty of "rushed" mistakes that I learned from. But my livestock never suffered. My wallet did.

Gotta agree with you Geno, I've been keeping reef aquarium since circa 1989, and the cost has skyrocketed even since. IMHO it doesn't matter if you go slow or fast when it comes to the equipment side of the hobby you're still spending the money. I'll I'm speaking of the of I want that cost, there are is need equipment and "Nice" to have equipment. The cost of the "need" or should I say essential equipment has gone up fast the stock market! I'm talking pump, powerheads, lighting, reactors, sumps and alike. The "Go Slow; nothing good happens fast" rule IMHO applies only to livestock! again, IMHO