How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle
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shawz_uk
New Member
Quick update!
Managed to get roughly 95% water change done today.
Out of curioustity checked ammonia again post water change with Red Sea test. Still reading at roughly 1-1.2. The reason I did this was not that I doubt the advice on this thread but that I decided to invest in a Seneye Reef Pack so once it’s set up I can compare the two results - hopefully will be helpful to the thread.
As luck would have it the micro usb of the seneye sws is busted so waiting on the replacement being sent! My luck.
Anyway will post back with both sets of results and now that the weekend is upon us hoping to pop out and get CUC.
Wee tank pic below
OP
OP
Should i turn off skimmer when adding live rock to seed?
Its a new 55 gallon and ill be buying live rock to seed my 50 pounds of dry/live rock, currently the nitrate and nitrite are very high and dont lower no matter what i do, i did a 75% water change 6 days ago and it did nothing, ive been adding microbacter7 for 13 days now and it did nothing, i...
www.reef2reef.com
reefer adds a little fully cured aquarium live rock to his tank, api says it’s stalled
-the fish in the aquarium eat from the hand, they’re happy. The tank is now unstuck it never was stuck or stalled. Our thread was written for exactly this type of case. Going on six pages the only items disagreeing are a set of api readings
on page one he could not make any start dates. By the end of the thread the start date was discerned, he never recycled at all, he can make macna on time now.
the thread turned into a procedural train wreck lol but not due to nh3 issues. we only wanted to feature again the classic stalled cycle where people buy things due to being unsure of what bacteria do. When the thread and syntax went sideways I backed out permanently, any fish added will be dead from disease very soon.
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OP
OP
Fine shot there: perfect clarity and high surface area, so sharp
thank you tons for the follow through and pics this specifically helps us build patterns for new learning
thank you tons for the follow through and pics this specifically helps us build patterns for new learning
OP
OP
relaying a few details posted in cycling threads recently-
1. I used matrix media from another reef tank to seed my cycle. I’m concerned they’re out competing new bacteria from forming, by up taking all the free ammonia.
-that can never happen. What controls the amount of bacteria in your system is time and attachment points (surface area) and not any offerings or withholdings from people. New bacteria form on the surface area over the time shown on a cycle chart because wet aquariums are constantly trapping feed whether we offer it or not. There is no time you can create a bacterial shortage by withholding feed. You can alter the *time* variable this way, might take three months to work up a cycle, but this is not a stall it’s the appropriate timeframe for an unassisted natural cycle. In the end, all surfaces submerged will be fully cycled. Slow if you don’t feed, fast if you do.
*live rock spaces only hold so much bacteria. after they stack up in micron-tall layers water shear and other competitions shave them off the rock surface and cast into suspension for redistribution. feeding more during a cycle does not implant more bacteria, it alters the time/wait variable into being much quicker than unfed systems
when you over feed a system, the water clouds for this reason. The bacteria cannot fit more on surfaces, so they go into suspension and use up / compete against your fish for oxygen.
time and surface area is the final determinant on cycle ability.
here is a testable application for the statement above: any reef tank on earth can hook up three canister filters on the tank packed with floss. In one month (cycle chart time) we can disconnect any filter, run it on a test 10 gallon reef set at 1 ppm ammonia, and over nite it will clear the free ammonia
the filters self cycled by contact only with water, and time, and shared resources within the tank. We did not have to feed, we did not have to add biospira, and the bacteria didn’t reduce in one area in order to transfer onto the new surface area.
water flow and slough from loaded surfaces did physically relocate bacteria BUT new growths formed over and over such that no empty surfaces were left.
we didn’t get new bacteria mass out of nowhere, the new bacteria were still feeding even though we didn’t add more feed to the tank before the test filters. Open-topped aquariums catch new feed all day long, forever. a reef tank that has completed cycling cannot be starved by fallow, they’ll still feed if we withhold. New bacteria imported don’t steal from the current bacteria, they share an endless feed source together in abundance.
1. I used matrix media from another reef tank to seed my cycle. I’m concerned they’re out competing new bacteria from forming, by up taking all the free ammonia.
-that can never happen. What controls the amount of bacteria in your system is time and attachment points (surface area) and not any offerings or withholdings from people. New bacteria form on the surface area over the time shown on a cycle chart because wet aquariums are constantly trapping feed whether we offer it or not. There is no time you can create a bacterial shortage by withholding feed. You can alter the *time* variable this way, might take three months to work up a cycle, but this is not a stall it’s the appropriate timeframe for an unassisted natural cycle. In the end, all surfaces submerged will be fully cycled. Slow if you don’t feed, fast if you do.
*live rock spaces only hold so much bacteria. after they stack up in micron-tall layers water shear and other competitions shave them off the rock surface and cast into suspension for redistribution. feeding more during a cycle does not implant more bacteria, it alters the time/wait variable into being much quicker than unfed systems
when you over feed a system, the water clouds for this reason. The bacteria cannot fit more on surfaces, so they go into suspension and use up / compete against your fish for oxygen.
time and surface area is the final determinant on cycle ability.
here is a testable application for the statement above: any reef tank on earth can hook up three canister filters on the tank packed with floss. In one month (cycle chart time) we can disconnect any filter, run it on a test 10 gallon reef set at 1 ppm ammonia, and over nite it will clear the free ammonia
the filters self cycled by contact only with water, and time, and shared resources within the tank. We did not have to feed, we did not have to add biospira, and the bacteria didn’t reduce in one area in order to transfer onto the new surface area.
water flow and slough from loaded surfaces did physically relocate bacteria BUT new growths formed over and over such that no empty surfaces were left.
we didn’t get new bacteria mass out of nowhere, the new bacteria were still feeding even though we didn’t add more feed to the tank before the test filters. Open-topped aquariums catch new feed all day long, forever. a reef tank that has completed cycling cannot be starved by fallow, they’ll still feed if we withhold. New bacteria imported don’t steal from the current bacteria, they share an endless feed source together in abundance.
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So you’re saying that if my tank can sustain a cleanup crew, then it is essentially cycled?
Reason I am asking is because I started cycling 12/07, I overdosed Dr. Tim’s ammonium chloride by a lot. And I mean by a lot. I’m using API test kits for ammonia and nitrite, Nyos for nitrate. Day 2 test showed 8ppm (darkest green I’ve ever seen with my API test). Seemingly in a week it dropped to 4 ppm. I tested nitrates and it shows 1 ppm. Not sure how that is possibleith a reduction in ammonia by 4ppm.
On 12/13, I added a small piece of live rock from my old system which has been established since 01/2020. The old system has a lot of nerite snails that likes to get busy. I noticed at least 3 baby nerites in my tank last night. 2 days since I placed them in the tank. Do you think my system is ready?
Also, I use Dr. Tim’s One and Only for bacteria in my system. I have yet to do a water change. Once I get my salt by mail, I will perform a large WC (maybe 50%)
Reason I am asking is because I started cycling 12/07, I overdosed Dr. Tim’s ammonium chloride by a lot. And I mean by a lot. I’m using API test kits for ammonia and nitrite, Nyos for nitrate. Day 2 test showed 8ppm (darkest green I’ve ever seen with my API test). Seemingly in a week it dropped to 4 ppm. I tested nitrates and it shows 1 ppm. Not sure how that is possibleith a reduction in ammonia by 4ppm.
On 12/13, I added a small piece of live rock from my old system which has been established since 01/2020. The old system has a lot of nerite snails that likes to get busy. I noticed at least 3 baby nerites in my tank last night. 2 days since I placed them in the tank. Do you think my system is ready?
Also, I use Dr. Tim’s One and Only for bacteria in my system. I have yet to do a water change. Once I get my salt by mail, I will perform a large WC (maybe 50%)
OP
OP
For sure a small clean up crew can go into a 120 gallon/ massive setup that’s uncycled and probably stay there until the system self cycles, dilution cheats the fact the tank isn’t ready. Presence of a clean up crew isn’t much proof until the system is really small and dilution doesn’t cheat the measure
the reason we ideally start with clean up crews here after tanks meet the submersion time, bottle date directions, ammonia control is because starting with fish instantly brings in disease and skips fallow prep
we can inspect any fish + bottle bac thread from any forum online today, and we’ll see fish doing fine. Not labored breathing at the top, gray water, smelling, then dying from free ammonia.
in our thread we are using the same bacteria they’re using across the spectrum + we are waiting at minimum for ammonia proofing or when in doubt, timeframe for ammonia control off a cycling chart. we use the clean up crews and beginning feeding/waste pellet production plus a few starter coral frags if someone wants as a basic start for each tank ideally
a clean up crew plus the feed we offer them will cloud up any nano within a few days and it will all die, if it’s uncycled
can u post a pic of your tank it will be a mighty easy assessment with clues listed so far, nice to meet you thanks for adding your tank to our mix
clownfish pairs aren’t super weak, they tend to weather out non fallow and if I had a nano large enough for fish, I’d order hq clowns and not fallow either but then again my goal isn’t a mixed fish reef, if it was I’d do fallow. A couple clowns and a goby have been used across thousands of nanos and beaten the six month / years lifespan test...it’s the highly mixed fish systems that really need fallow starts for the best chance of retaining fish
the reason we ideally start with clean up crews here after tanks meet the submersion time, bottle date directions, ammonia control is because starting with fish instantly brings in disease and skips fallow prep
we can inspect any fish + bottle bac thread from any forum online today, and we’ll see fish doing fine. Not labored breathing at the top, gray water, smelling, then dying from free ammonia.
in our thread we are using the same bacteria they’re using across the spectrum + we are waiting at minimum for ammonia proofing or when in doubt, timeframe for ammonia control off a cycling chart. we use the clean up crews and beginning feeding/waste pellet production plus a few starter coral frags if someone wants as a basic start for each tank ideally
a clean up crew plus the feed we offer them will cloud up any nano within a few days and it will all die, if it’s uncycled
can u post a pic of your tank it will be a mighty easy assessment with clues listed so far, nice to meet you thanks for adding your tank to our mix
clownfish pairs aren’t super weak, they tend to weather out non fallow and if I had a nano large enough for fish, I’d order hq clowns and not fallow either but then again my goal isn’t a mixed fish reef, if it was I’d do fallow. A couple clowns and a goby have been used across thousands of nanos and beaten the six month / years lifespan test...it’s the highly mixed fish systems that really need fallow starts for the best chance of retaining fish
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Here is my tank, sorry for the heavy blues. I don’t have an orange filter lens. I’m also posting the test results as well. API ammonia shows either 2ppm or 4ppm, depending on how the light hits it. Nitrite still 0. The nitrates are at 3ppm. I looked it over after taking the picture. Sorry for the bad photos.
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That system is a lot like Jack’s tank from page one in terms of ammonia reading and timing for the system. Since we are on day seven and Dr Tim’s bottle bac are ten day waits~ and the small portion of live rock contributes a little help as well (the sand people use initially is almost always wet pack sand, wet = bacteria) if that was my tank I would toss in a pinch of grinded up fish food ( carbon trick to speed up things by Dr Reef) and let it all sit until Monday or tuesday then change out the water and you’ll be even with any other reef here, can start
try to change it all out if possible just like Jacks tank. That will be a lot of algae feed for a new white rock system if it’s not changed / uglies coming strong by February
the nitrate you read above isn’t really the hard conversion rate for a large drop in ammonia the test kits are approximations only / not pinpoint
try to change it all out if possible just like Jacks tank. That will be a lot of algae feed for a new white rock system if it’s not changed / uglies coming strong by February
the nitrate you read above isn’t really the hard conversion rate for a large drop in ammonia the test kits are approximations only / not pinpoint
Awesome. I’ll go and purchase some fish food this weekend and throw in a pinch. I actually started with all dry sand and dry rock, with the exception of this 1/4 live rock added Sunday. I’ll definitely try to change as much as possible. Thanks for the help! I’ll keep the progress posted as I go along.
OP
OP
Nice detail, with an all dry start we should stew it till mid next week, give the fish food at least 3 or 4 days for its boost. The whole thing is probably ok without the wait and carbon, owing to all the fish- in cycles but this boost + a few days wait then big change will then work out just like Jacks reef all set
the application to our thread among cycle confusion on forums is that we aren’t worried about the reported levels. We are aiming for the time on a cycling chart for ammonia control (plus a couple extra for good measure) and then a big equalizing water change and it’s all evened out can begin. the fact we change out the water on the right date vs wait for wastewater to clear all nitrite and ammonia is what sets us apart as non-stallers
the application to our thread among cycle confusion on forums is that we aren’t worried about the reported levels. We are aiming for the time on a cycling chart for ammonia control (plus a couple extra for good measure) and then a big equalizing water change and it’s all evened out can begin. the fact we change out the water on the right date vs wait for wastewater to clear all nitrite and ammonia is what sets us apart as non-stallers
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mweber
New Member
Hi Brandon,
Can you give me your perspective on my cycle?
Day 1 2+
Day 2 2+ 0
Day 3 2+ .1 0
Day 4 2+ .2 0
Day 5 2 .5 0
Day 6 2 .5 2
Day 7 2 1 5
Day 8 2 1+ 10
Day 9 1.2 1++ 20
Day 10 1.2 1++ 10-20
Day 11 0.8 1++ 10-20
I’ve been looking at my high Nitrite numbers thinking something is wrong but my google searching brought me to this posting and I’d really appreciate your perspective on my cycle.
Thank you!
Mike
Can you give me your perspective on my cycle?
- Reefer 750, purchased second hand, cleaned extensively.
- The system has loads of CaribSea Life rock that I bleached for 4 days, rinsed, let sit in water for 2 more days, rinsed and then let sit dry before adding to the system. (The system was a disaster when I bought it)
- I used a combination of new dry sand and new live sand (bought by mistake)
- I started the system with a 250 ml bottle of Dr Tims One and Only and Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride (I used slightly too much).
- I’m using a Red Sea test kit
- I added a bottle of Microbacter Start XLM on day 6, I know, I’m not very patient ;-)
- My water is mostly clear from the front but slightly cloudy when viewed from the side
- I’ve left the lights off
- I have a healthy Reefer 350 that I will be migrating to this new tank. I moved a few rocks over along with one bacteria block after ~ day 5.
Day 1 2+
Day 2 2+ 0
Day 3 2+ .1 0
Day 4 2+ .2 0
Day 5 2 .5 0
Day 6 2 .5 2
Day 7 2 1 5
Day 8 2 1+ 10
Day 9 1.2 1++ 20
Day 10 1.2 1++ 10-20
Day 11 0.8 1++ 10-20
I’ve been looking at my high Nitrite numbers thinking something is wrong but my google searching brought me to this posting and I’d really appreciate your perspective on my cycle.
Thank you!
Mike
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OP
OP
The data and measures you posted are gold for us thanks tons
Can u post a front tank shot curious about rock ratios I'm sure it's perfect though
It is so so handy to see your ammonia portion start the down slide on the date a cycling chart says it will
and the date on Dr Tims bacteria has been met, in that data above.
I know how crazy it sounds to state its done / can start but our alternative is waiting till February after paying for speedier bottle bac let's see pics
The number one way we differ from other cycling posts is we think the down measure of ammonia means all the surface area is active not just some
By the time we measure down trend no zero required, that's all surface ready not just some, that's the specific new science we're testing. The kits we use are handy for down trends not so much hard zeroes, so everything above aligns with prior pages
This is looking 99% ready off description let's check pic details for finals
Can u post a front tank shot curious about rock ratios I'm sure it's perfect though
It is so so handy to see your ammonia portion start the down slide on the date a cycling chart says it will
and the date on Dr Tims bacteria has been met, in that data above.
I know how crazy it sounds to state its done / can start but our alternative is waiting till February after paying for speedier bottle bac
let's see picsThe number one way we differ from other cycling posts is we think the down measure of ammonia means all the surface area is active not just some
By the time we measure down trend no zero required, that's all surface ready not just some, that's the specific new science we're testing. The kits we use are handy for down trends not so much hard zeroes, so everything above aligns with prior pages
This is looking 99% ready off description let's check pic details for finals
mweber
New Member
Here you go.The data and measures you posted are gold for us thanks tons
Can u post a front tank shot curious about rock ratios I'm sure it's perfect though
It is so so handy to see your ammonia portion start the down slide on the date a cycling chart says it will
and the date on Dr Tims bacteria has been met, in that data above.
I know how crazy it sounds to state its done / can start but our alternative is waiting till February after paying for speedier bottle bac
The number one way we differ from other cycling posts is we think the down measure of ammonia means all the surface area is active not just some
By the time we measure down trend no zero required, that's all surface ready not just some, that's the specific new science we're testing. The kits we use are handy for down trends not so much hard zeroes, so everything above aligns with prior pages
This is looking 99% ready off description let's check pic details for finals
So, I guess the next steps would be as large a water change as I can manage and then I'm good?
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yes for sure, to export algae feed and nitrates in my opinion that ammonia will have already trended safely to where you'll still be after a water change, we claim the downtrending into what seneye would show (thousandths ppm nh3 specifically not the nh4 total reading) started on your day 10-12 when the reader said it started, and took about 30 mins to completely go into the thousandths, even though a current tester may not show that
a working seneye would show it, or for our purposes the living system accepting feed and bioload is the proof because an uncycled tank will not do that
lastly, this is a huge tank the dilution alone would mask any bad calls on my part heh/insulation umpire. if we kill any nano reefs in this thread that's because no dilution to rescue, the small tanks are the real test this one is already home free and looks it. you can start with or without the change
a working seneye would show it, or for our purposes the living system accepting feed and bioload is the proof because an uncycled tank will not do that
lastly, this is a huge tank the dilution alone would mask any bad calls on my part heh/insulation umpire. if we kill any nano reefs in this thread that's because no dilution to rescue, the small tanks are the real test this one is already home free and looks it. you can start with or without the change
mweber
New Member
Fantastic!
I also plan on moving some of the established rock from the 350 over temporarily so that should also buy me buffer.
Thank you for the information, I'll keep you updated from here!
OP
OP
ok perfect its certain to work
like to thank the all seeing eye that is google for all its listening done for ads by every word uttered lol
its been worth it if AI now sends cycle work
like to thank the all seeing eye that is google for all its listening done for ads by every word uttered lol
its been worth it if AI now sends cycle work
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