Humane euthanasia?

[GarrettT]

Humane euthanasia?

The mods were quick to shutdown a thread on the fish disease forum surrounding this topic due to unwanted feedback, yet failed to explain what exactly they deem as humane and appropriate. Post were removed because it didn’t meet the ethical fishkeeping standards and was in violation of the terms of service. I’ll be honest, suppressing post that you don’t agree with without a valid explanation bothers me. I would like to know exactly what reef2reef and others view as humane. It’s an important topic that I feel should be freely discussed without interruption.

Euthanize - freezer or clove

Here are the AVMA euthanasia guidelines (p. 83). https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf Jay

www.reef2reef.com

 

[blaxsun]

Considering how many fish die in transit, bullying or misadventure - I'm not really sure a discussion about euthanizing fish that are beyond hope of saving is inappropriate (I think compassion comes into play at some point).

Oh, and in before the lock.

 

[i cant think]

Humane euthanasia?

The mods were quick to shutdown a thread on the fish disease forum surrounding this topic due to unwanted feedback, yet failed to explain what exactly they deem as humane and appropriate. Post were removed because it didn’t meet the ethical fishkeeping standards and was in violation of the terms of service. I’ll be honest, suppressing post that you don’t agree with without a valid explanation bothers me. I would like to know exactly what reef2reef and others view as humane. It’s an important topic that I feel should be freely discussed without interruption.

Euthanize - freezer or clove

Here are the AVMA euthanasia guidelines (p. 83). https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf Jay

www.reef2reef.com

I’d say a humane thing is caring for the fishs needs before yours. If the fish suffers a long term issue that will become a larger problem in the future (for example a mouth defect causing the fish to be unable to eat) then you’ll obviously need to euthanise the fish in a humane way.
I’ve never euthanised a fish as I don’t know how to however I’ve read that certain oils can peacefully euthanise them without taking extreme measures. So I’d say a Human way of euthanising a fish is if it does it peacefully and doesn’t give a ton of pain to the animal.

 

[Slocke]

I've worked with animals my whole life from animal rescues and vets offices but also for food and leather (waste not). I have one goal when I euthanize or for any other reason: be fast and be affective. I don't care if it's pretty, if it does the job without causing suffering that's the way to go. whether that be a drug or oil or a decisive stab or whack top the brain.

 

[fish farmer]

Humane euthanasia?

The mods were quick to shutdown a thread on the fish disease forum surrounding this topic due to unwanted feedback, yet failed to explain what exactly they deem as humane and appropriate. Post were removed because it didn’t meet the ethical fishkeeping standards and was in violation of the terms of service. I’ll be honest, suppressing post that you don’t agree with without a valid explanation bothers me. I would like to know exactly what reef2reef and others view as humane. It’s an important topic that I feel should be freely discussed without interruption.

Euthanize - freezer or clove

Here are the AVMA euthanasia guidelines (p. 83). https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf Jay

www.reef2reef.com

Is slicing up corals humane? I'm sure it causes stress.

 

[gbru316]

Discussion regarding slow freezing and essential oils, and other questionably or downright unethical methods that make the reefkeepergood with little regard to the suffering of the animal are acceptable here.

Humane methods deemed ethical by veterinarians and leasing experts are not, because they might be gory (laceration, decapitation, exsanguination, blunt force trauma, etc).

Our sensibilities seem to matter more than the fish.

Animal husbandry is sometimes messy and difficult. There are no guarantees of “warm fuzzies.”

By censoring discussion surrounding ethical - albeit “messy” euthanasia techniques and keeping discussion limited to cleaner, less ethical ones (or ethical but hard to source chemicals), all we’re doing is prolonging the suffering of some of the very animals we claim to care about.

And let me be clear: I’m speaking very directly at the mod team here.

Every single hobbyist here has access to a blunt object and a knife. Every hobbyist has the tools and ability to ethically euthanize their fish in a manner deemed acceptable and humane by the American Veterinary Medicine Association. Why is pointing this out considered an ethics and site TOS violation?

 

[Privateye]

Dude, thank you for bringing this up. I messaged a mod about it too because I think it's dangerous to leave that thread as-is. More clarification and input is needed to guide safety.

I won't go too far into it, since this is the start of the thread, but I've humanely euthanized over 100,000 fish. Mostly with CO2. CO2 is complicated to do humanely, but it works equally well if you don't do it humanely. Don't just put a bottle of seltzer in a plastic bag. That is horribly inhumane. CO2 needs to be added with O2 and appropriate pH buffers.

Short story, for aquarium fish I recommend MS-222, properly buffered. CO2 is more of a foodfish industry thing to avoid using chemicals.

 

[gbru316]

Dude, thank you for bringing this up. I messaged a mod about it too because I think it's dangerous to leave that thread as-is. More clarification and input is needed to guide safety.

I won't go too far into it, since this is the start of the thread, but I've humanely euthanized over 100,000 fish. Mostly with CO2. CO2 is complicated to do humanely, but it works equally well if you don't do it humanely. Don't just put a bottle of seltzer in a plastic bag. That is horribly inhumane. CO2 needs to be added with O2 and appropriate pH buffers.

Short story, for aquarium fish I recommend MS-222, properly buffered. CO2 is more of a foodfish industry thing to avoid using chemicals.

Is MS-222 readily available to the typical hobbyist?

 

[Privateye]

Is MS-222 readily available to the typical hobbyist?

Yup, it's available from multiple online retailers. In the US it's sold as Syncaine, but anywhere you buy it in the US will be the same product. It all comes from the same manufacturer in North America. Just a different subsidiary or something in Canada.

Works on amphibians too.

 

[fish farmer]

Yup, it's available from multiple online retailers. In the US it's sold as Syncaine, but anywhere you buy it in the US will be the same product. It all comes from the same manufacturer in North America. Just a different subsidiary or something in Canada.

Works on amphibians too.

Noticed the new name the other day, syncaine. Tricane methanesulfanate.

 

[Privateye]

Noticed the new name the other day, syncaine. Tricane methanesulfanate.

With the name fish farmer, I know you understand

It's very common in aquaculture and fish research, but I've never seen it on the shelf at a LFS!

 

[fish farmer]

With the name fish farmer, I knew you'd understand

It's very common in aquaculture and fish research, but I've never seen it on the shelf at a LFS!

Humanely fondled female brook trout today...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Humane euthanasia?

The mods were quick to shutdown a thread on the fish disease forum surrounding this topic due to unwanted feedback, yet failed to explain what exactly they deem as humane and appropriate. Post were removed because it didn’t meet the ethical fishkeeping standards and was in violation of the terms of service. I’ll be honest, suppressing post that you don’t agree with without a valid explanation bothers me. I would like to know exactly what reef2reef and others view as humane. It’s an important topic that I feel should be freely discussed without interruption.

Euthanize - freezer or clove

Here are the AVMA euthanasia guidelines (p. 83). https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf Jay

www.reef2reef.com

Discussion regarding slow freezing and essential oils, and other questionably or downright unethical methods that make the reefkeepergood with little regard to the suffering of the animal are acceptable here.

Humane methods deemed ethical by veterinarians and leasing experts are not, because they might be gory (laceration, decapitation, exsanguination, blunt force trauma, etc).

Our sensibilities seem to matter more than the fish.

Animal husbandry is sometimes messy and difficult. There are no guarantees of “warm fuzzies.”

By censoring discussion surrounding ethical - albeit “messy” euthanasia techniques and keeping discussion limited to cleaner, less ethical ones (or ethical but hard to source chemicals), all we’re doing is prolonging the suffering of some of the very animals we claim to care about.

And let me be clear: I’m speaking very directly at the mod team here.

Every single hobbyist here has access to a blunt object and a knife. Every hobbyist has the tools and ability to ethically euthanize their fish in a manner deemed acceptable and humane by the American Veterinary Medicine Association. Why is pointing this out considered an ethics and site TOS violation?

I will be very direct here. This thread is already in violation of the terms of service. If you have a problem with a moderating decision, our terms of service call for you to contact the staff about that decision rather than posting publicly. Both of the posts quoted have called out your disagreement with moderating decisions publicly rather than addressing the staff directly as spelled out in the terms of service that each member agreed to when they joined Reef2Reef.

That said, as long as this thread remains within what is be deemed to be ethical treatment of animals, it will be allowed to remain open. If there are violations of this, they will be removed. If this thread goes sideways, it will be closed. Suggestions of methods that are deemed to be cruel to animals will not be allowed, so please keep this in mind. Also, keep in mind that other reefers with less experience than you might be viewing this thread, so suggesting methods that are likely to be carried out incorrectly is also not advisable.

Bottom line, we're trying to help one another succeed, and euthanizing a pet is one of the saddest (at times necessary) parts of reef-keeping. So please have a discussion that is aimed at helping others succeed.

 

[gbru316]

Short story, for aquarium fish I recommend MS-222, properly buffered. CO2 is more of a foodfish industry thing to avoid using chemicals.

Here's what the AVMA guidance says about MS-222

) Tricaine methanesulfonate, buffered (MS 222, TMS). An aversive response to MS 222 has been demonstrated for zebrafish and medaka, while carp, fathead minnow, and rainbow trout showed no aversion.305,306 Despite evidence of distress and aversion, immersive anesthetics continue to be administered to fish because the benefits associated with their use outweigh any distress and aversion they may cause. Solutions must be buered, and concentrations required for euthanasia may vary depending upon the species, life stage, and water chemistry parameters. A concentration of 250 to 500 mg/L, or 5 to 10 times the anesthetic dosage, is effective for most species.298,304 MS 222 at a dose of 400 mg/L has been shown to be ineffective for a few species (eg, Gulf of Mexico sturgeon).298 A recent study307 demonstrated that use of buffered MS 222 in a 1-step immersion technique was inadequate for euthanasia of goldfish (C auratus), a hypoxia-tolerant species. Results from this study support the recommendation for use of a 2-step method for euthanasia of goldfish and some other hypoxia-tolerant species, including cichlids, with the first step of involving immersion to render the fish unconscious and the second involving application of an adjunctive method (such as decapitation, pithing, or freezing) to complete euthanasia. Fish that are too large for practical or cost-effective immersion in lethal doses of buffered MS 222 can be euthanized by applying the concentrated, buffered solution directly to the gills.298,302

Whereas the blunt force trauma + exsanguination method involves the following:

The blow should be aimed just above the eyes to impact on the brain. The effectiveness of the stun should be checked and another blow applied if the fish is not unconscious.

After that, it's just a matter of sliding a knife behind the gill plate and wiggling it around a bit. The fish will then bleed out and die. This is the same method used every day by anglers the world over to euthanize their catch. That's how I learned to do it -- fishing, as a child. It's quick and easy, like humane euthanasia should be.

There are other non-chemical options, but decapitation requires pithing (spike through the brain -- harder to locate exact impact point for the novice), cervical transection (severed spinal cord, but that also then requires pithing), maceration (quickly chopping up, probably the easiest method for small fish under 2" or so and those with suitable home appliances)

MS-222 might be the "cleaner" option, but it seems like it's both harder to procure (compared to a blunt object and knife) and harder to properly administer unless one wants to just go all out and intentionally drastically overdose with the $40(ish) per gram MS-222.



On to specifically mentioned inhumane/unethical methods per the AVMA, we find some of the methods commonly discussed on message boards. These are the methods that there should be no tolerance of. Not the methods that feel "icky" or "cruel." Let's allow the medicine/science lead here.

The following are unacceptable methods of euthanasia in any situation. Flushing of fish into sewer, septic, or other types of outflow systems is unacceptable for many reasons. Water chemistry and quality may delay time to death and result in exposure to noxious compounds. For systems in close proximity to and/or connected to natural waterways, pathogen release or transmission may occur from diseased or carrier animals. Slow chilling or freezing of unanesthetized animals, including placing fish into a freezer without prior anesthesia, is also an unacceptable method. Similarly death by anoxia and desiccation after removal from the water or by anoxia in water; any death due to exposure to caustic chemicals; and death including prolonged traumatic injury prior to unconsciousness are unacceptable.

Overall, I think we, as a community, need to develop a standard when it comes to fish euthanasia. One that's easy to perform, not cost or material prohibitive, and one that aligns with AVMA guidance. I'm hardly an expert, but the document that @Jay Hemdal provided earlier today offers some good places to start.

 

[Goby Bryant]

clove oil

 

[gbru316]

clove oil

Edit: Initially commented in error. Clove oil is certainly an option:

Eugenol, isoeugenol, and clove oil. Whenever possible, products with standardized, known concentrations of essential oils should be used so that accurate dosing is possible. Concentrations required for anesthesia will vary depending on species and other factors, but may be as low as 17 mg/L for some species. Greater concentrations (10 times the upper range for anesthesia) will be required for euthanasia.298,313–315 These oils are not very water soluble; injecting the solution through a syringe and fine-gauge needle under the water in the container used for euthanizing is helpful in ensuring dispersal in the water. Fish should be left in the anesthetic solution for a minimum of 10 minutes after cessation of opercular movement. These compounds are equivocal or known carcinogens according to the National Toxicology Program.316 Some studies in rodents indicate this group of anesthetics may cause paralysis in addition to having anesthetic effects, and analgesic properties are unknown.70,317–319 The FDA strictly prohibits the use of clove oil and eugenol as anesthetics in fish having the potential to enter the food chain, except under Investigational New Animal Drug exemptions.320 Isoeugenol is a potential carcinogen316 so human safety in the application of that agent is of concern.

 

[Tired]

Do you have any research that says that clove oil is an inhumane method? I've seen multiple different scientifically-backed guides on humane euthanasia recommend it, including the document provided in the previous thread. I've also used it myself, and I've seen no signs of stress in the fish I've used it on. I have stressed some bristleworms when I added too much of the solution at once, but adding it slowly works on them as well.

The thing about caustic chemicals is, you can dilute them to a point where they no longer have a caustic effect on contact. That's what you do with clove oil. You don't just dump it on the fish.

 

[Goby Bryant]

Oh. Possibly a chemical that provides a slow and easy death. Don’t know what that is rn.

 

[gbru316]

Do you have any research that says that clove oil is an inhumane method? I've seen multiple different scientifically-backed guides on humane euthanasia recommend it, including the document provided in the previous thread. I've also used it myself, and I've seen no signs of stress in the fish I've used it on. I have stressed some bristleworms when I added too much of the solution at once, but adding it slowly works on them as well.

The thing about caustic chemicals is, you can dilute them to a point where they no longer have a caustic effect on contact. That's what you do with clove oil. You don't just dump it on the fish.

See my edit.

 

[Goby Bryant]

Thank you