Hyposalinity for new fish...

[cb684]

I was planning to use hyposalinity for quarantining new fish. There reasons I wanted to do that includes treatment of some of the parasitic diseases but also decreasing mortality due to stress.

I have a 100 gallon (6x15 gallon tanks + sump) QT system with ATO currently at SG 1,008.
How do I acclimate the fish to the system slow enough so I don't kill them of shock and fast enough that I do not kill them due to NH4 toxicity (animals are arriving after 1.5 days shipping)?
I read that I should match the pH of the tank to the pH of the water in the bags. How to do that fast?
Anybody with experience in hyposalinity?
Thank you.

CB

Some of the articles I read:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/5/aafeature

 

[melypr1985]

Fish can adjust to a lower salinity quicker than they can adjust to a higher one. In other words, it's easy enough to drip acclimate them to the system like you would any other fish. If your worried about ammonia then you can use a drop of Prime (assuming there is no copper in the water they come to you in) to keep that in check until they are done acclimating. Do the drip and test until their water matches the QT, then release.

Edit to say: Another method and probably a better one is to match the QT to that of the system the fish are coming from. Float and release, then start dropping the salinity down to Hypo conditions.

 

[cb684]

Fish can adjust to a lower salinity quicker than they can adjust to a higher one. In other words, it's easy enough to drip acclimate them to the system like you would any other fish. If your worried about ammonia then you can use a drop of Prime (assuming there is no copper in the water they come to you in) to keep that in check until they are done acclimating. Do the drip and test until their water matches the QT, then release.

Right. I read that somewhere, but I could not find how fast it should be. Just the regular drip acclimation for 30-45 minutes?
Also, on these older articles I see a lot of people worried about pH. Did that change or should I worry about pH too (usually it is not part of any discussion I ready more recently)? If so, I am not sure what pH should I match. The one in the bag? It does not make a lot of sense since it should be low due to the CO2, right? (or high due to the ammonia?) @Randy Holmes-Farley

Edit to say: Another method and probably a better one is to match the QT to that of the system the fish are coming from. Float and release, then start dropping the salinity down to Hypo conditions.

Doing this sounds like good common sense., but part of the reason of doing hyposalinity would be that reduces stress because the fish does not need to regulate:

"Significant portions of post shipment losses are due to osmoregulatory dysfunction and stress-mediated diseases occurring within the first week after transport (Johnson & Metcalf, 1982. Carmicheal et. al, 1984). Stress in fish causes osmoregulatory dysfunction (Harrell & Moline, 1992. Weirich et. al, 1992). This can lead to mortalities (Tomasso et. al, 1980). Reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance ((Wedemeyer, 1996). Manipulating the salinity of the transport water upward for freshwater fish and conversely downward for saltwater fish is effective for controlling osmoregulatory disturbances and reducing losses (Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment."(http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/5/aafeature)

So, I would like to do this as fast as possible without killing the fish with a osmolality shock (if that make sense).

The other thing I do not understand is while this method sounds really great, apparently it is not very used among hobbyists. Is there a reason for that? Was this proven ineffective or prejudicial?

 

[melypr1985]

I've never worried about matching PH while acclimating. They are acclimating to the new ph as well. By the time your done with Drip acclimating, the water they were in is then replaced by your water. At the store we will spend an hour acclimating our fish to the various systems. It just depends on the salinity the fish were shipped in. Sometimes it's quicker, sometimes not. We airate the water really well and in some cases are able to use prime in the water to help with any ammonia build up. We try to make it as quick and stress free as possible for the fish.

The other thing I do not understand is while this method sounds really great, apparently it is not very used among hobbyists. Is there a reason for that? Was this proven ineffective or prejudicial?

The biggest reason it's not used more often is because it's difficult to execute properly. Once the salinity rises above 1.009 (even just once and for a short time) the clock starts over again. Of course most people dont have an extra ATO to use on their QT or a perfectly calibrated refractometer on hand. Then there is the fact that there are some strains of ich that are hypo resistant. You'll have to have a back up plan in case you run into one of those strains. I'm not a fan of hypo for these reasons, TTM is just way easier and shorter for me. 15 ish days and they are done with ich.

 

[Humblefish]

Edit to say: Another method and probably a better one is to match the QT to that of the system the fish are coming from. Float and release, then start dropping the salinity down to Hypo conditions.

^^This is what I would do. Most fish can handle a rapid SG drop, but just drip acclimating from 1.019 (typical SG for wholesalers/online vendors) to 1.008 is a bit much.

Below (taken from here: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164) touches on Yambot's study proving hypo resistant strains of ich do exist. Even worse, hypo does not treat brook or velvet, and the latter is a big problem running through the wholesale facilities right now (so you are likely to encounter it at some point.)

More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities.

 

[cb684]

@melypr1985 and @Humblefish: Thank you. I am bringing the SG to 1.019, and will decrease throughout two days to 1.008.
After getting the fish eating I may or may not (still deciding) to do preventive treatment and deworming.
CB

Here a picture of the setup:

 

[Humblefish]

@cb684 Nice setup! Just be aware of aerosol transmission if a disease hits one of the tanks: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

Looks like they're all plumbed together anyway.

 

[cb684]

@cb684 Nice setup! Just be aware of aerosol transmission if a disease hits one of the tanks: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

Looks like they're all plumbed together anyway.

Yes they are...
So after reading the material you linked I decided to get Chloroquine Phosphate and do a preventive treatment, and then deworming with a couple of rounds of API General Cure. Any considerations for those and hyposalinity?
Also, the system is new and I was going to rely on Prime, and Microbacter7 for NH4 toxicity control until the biological filter start working. As biological filter I am relying on a 8x8x4 Marine Pure ceramic media. How does that sound?
I have plenty flow and aeration, so I do not believe low O2 will be a problem.
Thanks again...
CB

 

[Humblefish]

@cb684 I've never used those meds in hypo conditions, so I cannot say if there would be any contraindications. However, CP combined with General Cure is basically my experimental QT regimen and it has worked very well. The combination of those meds would eliminate the need for hypo IMHO.

Your bio filter looks solid. Another option, being your QTs are all tied into a sump, would be this: http://www.bashsea.com/products/standard-series/bio-reactor

 

[cb684]

Ok. That filter is really cool! It is a small version of what I have in my pond (rated for 20,000 gallon fresh water)

So you start with the CP and do a couple of General Cure treatment at the same time?
Do you do any water changes? If so, do you add CP to match the QT concentration in the new mixed saltwater?
Thanks
CB

 

[Humblefish]

So you start with the CP and do a couple of General Cure treatment at the same time?
Do you do any water changes? If so, do you add CP to match the QT concentration in the new mixed saltwater?-

This is exactly what I do:

• Dose CP @ 40mg/gal before the fish ever hits the QT. This covers all external parasites.
• Dose powder praziquantel (7.5mg/gal) & metronidazole (25mg/gal) on Days 2, 4, 9 and 11 (the dosages are identical to using API General Cure). This deworms, and the presence of metro reinforces external parasite treatment for brook & uronema.
• IF symptoms of a bacterial infection present themselves, I add Kanaplex to the mix.

On Day 12 I transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank for observation. Sometimes continued antibiotic treatment is needed for lingering infections, but I've never seen evidence of parasites or worms after employing this 12 day treatment program. And I only put fish with active infections of ich, velvet, brook, uronema, etc. through it to give it a rigorous testing out. No water changes are done, as my QT bio-filter controls ammonia for the entire 12 days of treatment.

 

[cb684]

Great. Thank you! I will try something similar as soon as I can get the medication.

 

[Humblefish]

Great. Thank you! I will try something similar as soon as I can get the medication.

Make sure the CP is pharmaceutical grade.

 

[cb684]

Make sure the CP is pharmaceutical grade.

Yes, I am getting 32 x 500mg tablets at Walmart pharmacy.

 

[Humblefish]

Yes, I am getting 32 x 500mg tablets at Walmart pharmacy.

Below is something you need to know about the tablets. It was taken from Bob Goemans online book, THE LIVING AQUARIUM MANUAL:

In most cases, 250 mg tablets have an equivalence of 150 mg chloroquine base, and 500 mg tablets have an equivalence of 300 mg chloroquine base. Although the purity mentioned above is generally accurate, it would be best to verify the chloroquine base contained in the tablets of your choice in order to be able to properly calculate the exact dosage. Keep in mind if you decide to use the tablets, there are some inactive ingredients, which you may have to deal with, e.g., Camauba Wax, Colloidal Silicon Dioxide, Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Polyethylene Glycol, Polysorbate 80, Pregelatinized Starch, Sodium Starch Glycolate, Stearic Acid, and Titanium Dioxide. And as mentioned earlier in this chapter there are occasions where some medicines are not in their pure form (100% pure), i.e., mixed with a substance called a 'carrier,' which should be noted on its label. If so its potency is reduced, and if not sure about the exact amount of medication needed, suggest contacting a more experienced aquarist for the way to resolve this situation.

Just curious ... How did you go about getting a Rx for the tablets and how much are they costing you? I'm trying to figure out a way to make it easier for our members to get access to CP.

 

[cb684]

Below is something you need to know about the tablets. It was taken from Bob Goemans online book, THE LIVING AQUARIUM MANUAL:


Just curious ... How did you go about getting a Rx for the tablets and how much are they costing you? I'm trying to figure out a way to make it easier for our members to get access to CP.

I am a DVM but I do not do clinics, so I asked a friend that is also a colleague for a Rx. I understand they will cost about 55 $. I understand and I will check how much CP there are on each tablet before calculating how many tablets I will need to use.

I raised the SG to 1.021 and since I did not took to long rinsing the ceramic media I am running some ROX carbon until I medicate the system tomorrow. Fish will likely get here by mid afternoon, I will add the CP about the same time.

Will it dissolve easily in saltwater?

 

[Humblefish]

Will it dissolve easily in saltwater?

Have never used the tablets myself, only the powder. But a friend who has didn't have any problems with them dissolving. Maybe put the tablets in a high flow area just to be safe.

 

[cb684]

Have never used the tablets myself, only the powder. But a friend who has didn't have any problems with them dissolving. Maybe put the tablets in a high flow area just to be safe.

Ok great. I will dissolve them in a gallon of saltwater (I have a magnetic stirrer, so I will be able to know that I am adding it all).
I have just a couple more questions. Can I use Prime with CP? And are there any fish species that are known to not tolerate CP?
Thanks a lot for your help!
CB

 

[Humblefish]

Can I use Prime with CP?

Yes

And are there any fish species that are known to not tolerate CP?

Avoid Halichoeres & Pseudocheilinus wrasses; but "Fairy" and "Flasher" wrasses seem to be fine with it.

Avoid Paracanthurus i.e. Hippo Tangs; but all other tangs seem to be fine.

 

[cb684]

Great. Thank you. How does the price I am paying compare to what you pay?