I am a fool bought a clown a petco and he has developed ich

[Sashaka]

He has been in it over night and he seems fine, he is eating also.
I used the recommend dose on the cupramine bottle before reading that it is a good idea to use half the dose . So the next 48 hours I will not use as much.

I'm confused. If you already added the dose on the bottle, why are you adding more, unless you're ramping up to medicinal level? Once at medicinal level, you need to check the stability every day with a copper test kit. If you don't have the High Range Hannah tester, the API copper test kit is better than nothing at all. BTW: You should only need to add more copper when you do water changes. Copper does not evaporate.

The tank looks good. Lights are not needed for a sick tank. I don't see the ammonia badge. They are cheap and well worth the money to constantly monitor your tank for ammonia spikes in an uncycled tank.

 

[Aidanwolf]

I'm confused. If you already added the dose on the bottle, why are you adding more, unless you're ramping up to medicinal level? Once at medicinal level, you need to check the stability every day with a copper test kit. If you don't have the High Range Hannah tester, the API copper test kit is better than nothing at all. BTW: You should only need to add more copper when you do water changes. Copper does not evaporate.

The tank looks good. Lights are not needed for a sick tank. I don't see the ammonia badge. They are cheap and well worth the money to constantly monitor your tank for ammonia spikes in an uncycled tank.

I have the api copper tester.

 

[Aidanwolf]

I was confused does that mean if the copper level drops add more or what?
I just ordered the ammonia badge.

 

[Sashaka]

I have never used the brand of copper you are using. The manufactures packaging directions seem to be ramping up copper to medicinal levels. Test with your API and when you're at 1.5 to 2.0 you're at medicinal levels. If you go below 1.5 you, yes, you need to add more copper and then start the clock over again for 30 days in copper. If you go above, you need to do a partial water change immediately. @HotRocks is this right for his brand of copper?

I run all my tanks at 1.7 to 2. just to make sure there is no drop and I don't need to start my 30 day clock over again.

The ammonia badge is awesome. I will never run a sick tank without one. They do not register nitrite though, so larger water changes in an uncycled tank are still needed IMO.

 

[Aidanwolf]

I have never used the brand of copper you are using. The manufactures packaging directions seem to be ramping up copper to medicinal levels. Test with your API and when you're at 1.5 to 2.0 you're at medicinal levels. If you go below 1.5 you, yes, you need to add more copper and then start the clock over again for 30 days in copper. If you go above, you need to do a partial water change immediately. @HotRocks is this right for his brand of copper?

I run all my tanks at 1.7 to 2. just to make sure there is no drop and I don't need to start my 30 day clock over again.

The ammonia badge is awesome. I will never run a sick tank without one. They do not register nitrite though, so larger water changes in an uncycled tank are still needed IMO.

You haven't heard of Seachem Cupramine, I would have gotten copperpower but I didn't know it was better untill after I ordered the Cupramine.

 

[Aidanwolf]

I have never used the brand of copper you are using. The manufactures packaging directions seem to be ramping up copper to medicinal levels. Test with your API and when you're at 1.5 to 2.0 you're at medicinal levels. If you go below 1.5 you, yes, you need to add more copper and then start the clock over again for 30 days in copper. If you go above, you need to do a partial water change immediately. @HotRocks is this right for his brand of copper?

I run all my tanks at 1.7 to 2. just to make sure there is no drop and I don't need to start my 30 day clock over again.

The ammonia badge is awesome. I will never run a sick tank without one. They do not register nitrite though, so larger water changes in an uncycled tank are still needed IMO.

I added a bottle of instant cycler when I set it up so hopefully that helps.

 

[Sashaka]

You haven't heard of Seachem Cupramine,

Oh, yes. I've heard of it. My LFS recommended it when I first got into the hobby, but I chose to go with more natural methods in the beginning...that is until I realized my fish were dying because of my ignorance. I then did some research and decided that CopperPower was the copper I wanted to use. I've never used any other copper as I've always had really great luck with it...even with copper sensitive fish.

I just had no reason to switch to another brand of copper .

I added a bottle of instant cycler when I set it up so hopefully that helps.

I definitely think it will help. The copper will probably kill most of the beneficial bacteria that you add, but the bacteria that do survive the copper (bacteria of any kind are hardy little bugs, lol) will eventually acclimate and multiply. Until they do, keep a close watch. I'm not sure what bacteria in a bottle you added but I've had good luck with Microbacter7 when I've had to jump-start a cycle in copper. I believe there is a thread somewhere on R2R about which bacteria in a bottle was more effective if you want to do a search. I remember is was an interesting thread to follow.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I haven’t caught up in the entire thread, so if I’m missing something bear with me...

You are using cupramine, so the API test kit will actually not be accurate. Cupramine is ionic copper, API kit is for use with chelated copper.

For ionic copper, the therapeutic level is .5. It’s pretty important to hold it steady, as above .6 can become toxic, and below .4 is less than therapeutic ie. not effective.

I wouldn’t trust the dosage instructions to get you to therapeutic without testing to confirm. It’s pretty important to get the correct test kit for the copper you are using. Seachem makes a test kit specifically for use with cupramine.

 

[Aidanwolf]

I haven’t caught up in the entire thread, so if I’m missing something bear with me...

You are using cupramine, so the API test kit will actually not be accurate. Cupramine is ionic copper, API kit is for use with chelated copper.

For ionic copper, the therapeutic level is .5. It’s pretty important to hold it steady, as above .6 can become toxic, and below .4 is less than therapeutic ie. not effective.

I wouldn’t trust the dosage instructions to get you to therapeutic without testing to confirm. It’s pretty important to get the correct test kit for the copper you are using. Seachem makes a test kit specifically for use with cupramine.

Thanks I will order the kit.

 

[Aidanwolf]

Oh, yes. I've heard of it. My LFS recommended it when I first got into the hobby, but I chose to go with more natural methods in the beginning...that is until I realized my fish were dying because of my ignorance. I then did some research and decided that CopperPower was the copper I wanted to use. I've never used any other copper as I've always had really great luck with it...even with copper sensitive fish.

I just had no reason to switch to another brand of copper .



I definitely think it will help. The copper will probably kill most of the beneficial bacteria that you add, but the bacteria that do survive the copper (bacteria of any kind are hardy little bugs, lol) will eventually acclimate and multiply. Until they do, keep a close watch. I'm not sure what bacteria in a bottle you added but I've had good luck with Microbacter7 when I've had to jump-start a cycle in copper. I believe there is a thread somewhere on R2R about which bacteria in a bottle was more effective if you want to do a search. I remember is was an interesting thread to follow.

I used the instant ocean biospira brand, but I heard Dr Tim's was a better brand. But for some reason it doesn't have great reviews on Amazon.

 

[Aidanwolf]

The ammonia badge is in. The seachem copper test kit is coming Saturday.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I haven’t caught up in the entire thread, so if I’m missing something bear with me...

You are using cupramine, so the API test kit will actually not be accurate. Cupramine is ionic copper, API kit is for use with chelated copper.

For ionic copper, the therapeutic level is .5. It’s pretty important to hold it steady, as above .6 can become toxic, and below .4 is less than therapeutic ie. not effective.

I wouldn’t trust the dosage instructions to get you to therapeutic without testing to confirm. It’s pretty important to get the correct test kit for the copper you are using. Seachem makes a test kit specifically for use with cupramine.

Thanks I will order the kit.

@ngoodermuth is correct. IME, the dosing instructions on the bottle are not accurate and too aggressive. Regardless, you need to check the levels religiously and not trust the dosing instructions.

If you haven't already ordered a test kit, I would strongly encourage you to get a Hanna Copper Checker. The ease of use and accuracy are night and day better than the other copper test kits. (I say this as someone who used to use cupramine with the Seachem test kit.)

 

[Sashaka]

Cupramine is ionic copper, API kit is for use with chelated copper.

Thanks, ngoodermuth, for chiming in! I don't use Cupramine, so I had forgotten about the different test kits for measuring copper levels.

 

[Aidanwolf]

So I am going to wait 2 months for the ich to die off in the main tank. Can I go ahead and add more fish to the qt while the the ich is dying off? And if so should I reduce the copper in the tank before adding the new fish?

 

[Sashaka]

If you decide to go fallow in the MD, experts such as @Humblefish recommend 76 days, not two months, as the number of days to go fishless to be sure the most hardy strains are eradicated.

I can only tell you what works for me with CoperPower. I have added new fish to an existing sick tank with CopperPower, but only during the first week while I am ramping up. I just take a little longer when acclimating the fish because of the copper. I have not had problems doing this. The 30 days in copper clock does not start until you've reached medicinal level. If you add a fish after the tank has reached medicinal level, you must start the clock over again for 30 days. Cupramine may not be as gentle, I don't know. #Reefsquad may be able to give better advice for that brand of copper.

 

[Aidanwolf]

If you decide to go fallow in the MD, experts such as @Humblefish recommend 76 days, not two months, as the number of days to go fishless to be sure the most hardy strains are eradicated.

I can only tell you what works for me with CoperPower. I have added new fish to an existing sick tank with CopperPower, but only during the first week while I am ramping up. I just take a little longer when acclimating the fish because of the copper. I have not had problems doing this. The 30 days in copper clock does not start until you've reached medicinal level. If you add a fish after the tank has reached medicinal level, you must start the clock over again for 30 days. Cupramine may not be as gentle, I don't know. #Reefsquad may be able to give better advice for that brand of copper.

I have seen people say 76 days and others say 6 to 8 weeks.

 

[Sashaka]

I have seen people say 76 days and others say 6 to 8 weeks.

You are right there! For any one question about the saltwater hobby, you can receive 20 different answers (hyperbole-maybe not). It's what I found so confusing and frustrating when I first started looking for answers to issues. Ultimately, you will decide what you want to do. For me, it was looking to science to find answers. That is why I provided the link from @Humblefish. He is considered one of the most knowledgeable members in fish diseases here at R2R, IMHO. You can't go wrong by taking his advice. We also have a great group of people at #Reefsquad who can offer assistance with fish illness and treatment.

If you're interested in the link again...for how I came upon the 76 days: @Humblefish has a complete write up to help you out: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

You can also search "Humblefish" to see other articles and threads he has created that may be of benefit to you.

Good luck!

 

[Sleepydoc]

Sorry you're having the issues with the clown fish. From my experience with Petco, you need to assume every fish you get there has ich. Most of the time it's abundantly clear just looking at them in the tank in the store. I think they are following PaulB's mantra of 'it's better for them to have immunity,' just not doing it very well.

Part of the issue with the fallow question is that there is a range of time which tomonts can survive, depending on conditions, so while 6 weeks may be fine much of the time, there will be cases where it's not.

As far as getting other fish during that time, it might work out but I would advise waiting for a couple of reasons. First, you have a fish that is actually sick, not just being prophylactically quarantined. Second, many fish react adversely to copper. If you get another fish and it reacts poorly, you don't have the ability to remove the copper without compromising the treatment of your clown fish. Finally, it's possible that one of the other fish would introduce a disease that would infect your clown due to its compromised state.

As someone (actually several people) said - nothing good happens fast in this hobby!

 

[Aidanwolf]

Cool thanks guys.

 

[Sashaka]

As someone (actually several people) said - nothing good happens fast in this hobby!

I agree with everything Sleepydoc wrote! To clarify, my policy is to simply treat every fish I purchase proactively with copper or CP. I'm done with hidden diseases that show up months later when the tank is stressed. You'll find there are two sides to this camp too, and both are as passionate about the best way to handle illness as the other. Both sides have valid arguments for and against treating proactively. My personal journey taking care of saltwater creatures and the many fish that I have purchased over the years that have come to me sick has led me to adopt proactive treatments as my go to policy. Your experiences will guide you to come to conclusions about treating proactively or not as well, I'm sure. ;Doctor