I stopped equalising water for fish.

[Malcontent]

Link some of those studies then.

I run a calcium reactor. The effluent is about pH 6.2. I can leave a cup of it out, and it's at almost 8 in less than an hour. I know, because I've done this.

A new experimental technique for validating exchange models of carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and sea-water - PubMed

The mechanism of CO(2)-exchange between the atmosphere and sea-water was re-examined by simultaneously measuring pH and pO(2) in artificial sea-water exposed to CO(2) and air atmospheres. The data were fitted to an exchange model by using both the differential and integral forms of the diffusion...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

CO2 is much more soluble than O2 but their coefficients of diffusion are similar. My tap water comes out at 120% O2 (I don't have a CO2 meter) saturation and even with heating and a mixing pump it takes more than 24 hours to reach equilibrium.

Fish farms have degassing towers to remove CO2. If CO2 instantly diffused out of water there would be no need.

Gases don't diffuse out of water instantly or even rapidly in most cases.

Someone on theplantedtank.net tested pH of a bag of shipped fish and said it didn't obey the narrative. That's a better claim than yours due to context alone.

 

[92Miata]

A new experimental technique for validating exchange models of carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and sea-water - PubMed

The mechanism of CO(2)-exchange between the atmosphere and sea-water was re-examined by simultaneously measuring pH and pO(2) in artificial sea-water exposed to CO(2) and air atmospheres. The data were fitted to an exchange model by using both the differential and integral forms of the diffusion...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Quick question - did you actually read that? And did you actually look at that graph?

The pH goes from 9.0 to below 6.0 almost immediately. pCO2 goes from 5.0 to 7.x almost immediately, and then takes a couple minutes to get up to 8, and is almost at 9 by two and a half hours.

CO2 is much more soluble than O2 but their coefficients of diffusion are similar. My tap water comes out at 120% O2 (I don't have a CO2 meter) saturation and even with heating and a mixing pump it takes more than 24 hours to reach equilibrium.

Again, equilibrium is not necessary here. The time to equilibrium is irrelevant.


At 25c, the percentage of un-ionized ammonia basically goes up by 50% every .1 unit of pH. An increase of .5 units of pH is enough to have 400% increase in toxicity. (it also increases by about 15% every 2c).

The difference between that 5.0 to 7.x swing that happened almost immediately is a several thousand times increase in toxicity.

Fish farms have degassing towers to remove CO2. If CO2 instantly diffused out of water there would be no need.

Gases don't diffuse out of water instantly or even rapidly in most cases.

No one is claiming it diffuses instantly. Do you want to have an actual discussion here, or are you going to continue to strawman?

Someone on theplantedtank.net tested pH of a bag of shipped fish and said it didn't obey the narrative. That's a better claim than yours due to context alone.

Ah, yes, a test on freshwater fish is more relevant because you disagree with me.

That's some serious intellectual dishonesty right there.

 

[Malcontent]

Quick question - did you actually read that? And did you actually look at that graph?

The pH goes from 9.0 to below 6.0 almost immediately. pCO2 goes from 5.0 to 7.x almost immediately, and then takes a couple minutes to get up to 8, and is almost at 9 by two and a half hours.

pH takes 5 hours to go from 6.2 to 7.5 and that's with stirring.

At 25c, the percentage of un-ionized ammonia basically goes up by 50% every .1 unit of pH. An increase of .5 units of pH is enough to have 400% increase in toxicity. (it also increases by about 15% every 2c).

The difference between that 5.0 to 7.x swing that happened almost immediately is a several thousand times increase in toxicity.

No one is claiming it diffuses instantly. Do you want to have an actual discussion here, or are you going to continue to strawman?

So why do fish farms need degassing columns? They have open tops and a large surface area to volume ratio.

Why does it take oxygen such a long time to diffuse out of water?

Ah, yes, a test on freshwater fish is more relevant because you disagree with me.

That's some serious intellectual dishonesty right there.

A test of actual shipped fish water is more relevant than calcium reactor effluent. Way more relevant.

 

[92Miata]

pH takes 5 hours to go from 6.2 to 7.5 and that's with stirring.

And again, that's way more than enough to kill fish, because that's an 8000% increase in percentage of ammonia as un-ionized.

So why do fish farms need degassing columns? They have open tops and a large surface area to volume ratio.

Because fish farms stock at heavy levels and it's cheaper to build degassing towers than stock at lower levels. No one is claiming CO2 degasses instantaneously.

Either you're a troll, or you don't understand this at all.

A test of actual shipped fish water is more relevant than calcium reactor effluent. Way more relevant.

Why, specifically, do you think a test of freshwater is more relevant than saltwater on a forum for marine fish, especially given the interaction between bicarbonate alkalinity and pH? Why do you think that the CO2 from a calcium reactor is less relevant than some post on PlantedTank that you believe exists?

This whole thing is stupid. I can literally turn my skimmer off and watch my pH drop. The idea that CO2 doesn't meaningfully off gas in salt water when it's concentration is significantly different from atmospheric is nonsense. And the fact that you're using a paper that literally agrees with me to argue that is insane.

 

[merkmerk73]

So what's the "best of both worlds" option?

I agree with the sentiment that trying to acclimate in toxic water is probably more dangerous than salinity differences, but it seems like there is a real danger of osmotic shock and we shouldn't just chuck these guys in either

 

[FishTruck]

Suddenly raising salinity was apparently fatal to some anthias that I witnessed. These were fish that I had QT'd and did great for a few weeks. The anthias, I did final acclimation to my display over about 30 minutes (after the 3rd week) and 4 of 5 died within 12 hours, looking immediately brain damaged upon introduction to the tank. I realized checking later that I had incorrectly measured the SG in the QT... resulting in a sudden change from 1.022 to 1.026 in that 30 minutes.

Another blue throat trigger was doing great in QT. This was a fish that had been in captivity for a long time and had outgrown it's former tank. Brought the SG from 1.018 to 1.023 - no problem. Got impatient and brought it to 1.026 pretty quickly one day - by adding display water to QT. The fish started swimming weird, quit eating, acted brain damaged and never made it to the display.

In humans, correcting hyponatremia too quickly can be fatal due to osmotic effects on the brain, and I suspect the same is true for fish. So, based on my anecdote, I only worry about SG increasing too quickly.

 

[Malcontent]

And again, that's way more than enough to kill fish, because that's an 8000% increase in percentage of ammonia as un-ionized.

How toxic is ammonia at a pH of six? Basically zero. 8,000 times zero is..not much. It would certainly explain why dripped fish aren't dying in droves.

Besides, you're diluting with clean water (hopefully) when dripping. And I always begin by draining off as much of the bag water as soon as I begin.

Because fish farms stock at heavy levels and it's cheaper to build degassing towers than stock at lower levels. No one is claiming CO2 degasses instantaneously.

Either you're a troll, or you don't understand this at all.

And a fish in a bag isn't overstocked? Why do they need degassing towers if CO2 degasses in an hour? Why not just wait an hour?

This whole thing is stupid. I can literally turn my skimmer off and watch my pH drop. The idea that CO2 doesn't meaningfully off gas in salt water when it's concentration is significantly different from atmospheric is nonsense. And the fact that you're using a paper that literally agrees with me to argue that is insane.

The paper doesn't support the idea that CO2 desorption occurs instantly or even quickly (~1 hr).

Here's another paper where they use soda lime to absorb 75% of the CO2 and increased pH yet improved survival rates from 31 to 100%. This should be worse than opening the bag--it's as if they never even closed it.

 

[merkmerk73]

I use a needle to poke the bag (below the water) to get a salinity reading and tape it back up and let it float. I then make a gallon or so of FSW with that salinity and once its heated to the same as my reef tank I plop the fish into there. I do keep an airstone in there as well. Then slowly increase the salinity over an hour via drip or just a cup of water at a time until it matches the tank then drop it in. I havent lost a fish yet this way.

Do you worry about mixing the salt for a day in advance or whatever is the standard?

 

[Tchung23]

I just pour half of the water from the bag out. Fill it back up with tank water. Float for 20 mins and then use net the fish out into dt. Seems to work‍

 

[slythy]

Do you worry about mixing the salt for a day in advance or whatever is the standard?

i do it just with tank water and then add in RO/DI to lower it. It doesnt take much. Then I top off my aquarium with new saltwater thats already premixed.

 

[Coinzmans Reef]

Never bag my new fish. I have a cooler with small power head and heater fish goes in specimen box to cooler with water that matches LFS. I make the QT tank match the LFS, when I get home drop and plop. I raise the salt and lower the temp over the next month than drop and plop again to main tank. This method is tedious but never had an issue.
My LFS is 1.017 84F and my main tank is 1.026 77.6F. I stopped bagging due to the long ride.

 

[brandon429]

@92Miata I look forward to reading your posts. Impressive.


wanted to add to this thread, here’s someone prepping their costly fish by receiving tank acclimation.

Shipped fish salinity mismatch. Ramp up time?

So I received some fish online. This vendor ships their fish low, around 1.18-1.19 is advertised. I tested the bag water and it was 1.16-1.17. No biggie, adjusted my 10 gallon acclimation tank and after a 30 minute temperature acclimation and dumped just the fish in. Longnose butterfly and...

www.reef2reef.com

he is resolved to raise his salinity up in a receiving tank vs a bag, he invested in the right gear for the job it seems, so this is good to track for new patterning where fish care goes.

 

[Paul B]

I collected 50 gallons of water in the sea yesterday and besides it being 40 degrees the salinity was also 0.019