I think I need to start dosing...

SirRoadwolf · Dec 25, 2018

I have been so busy over the last few months, and while I have noticed things declining slowly in my tank, I have been making small adjustments to my lighting or feeding behavior to try to find a balance.

I also recently added a UV light in the return section of my Sump.

But last night, while doing a water check, I noticed my PO4 up at 2.78, nitrate at about 90, and nitrites at about 177 ppb.

My Salinity has been stable at 1.025, and temp at 78. kH is 8, Calcium at 500

So, I wonder if I have been killing off some beneficial bacteria with the UV?

I have considered a partial water change, which may be what is required.

In any case, last night I manually dosed a bit of vinegar. Maybe I used too much, as the corals all pulled back into their safe spaces

I am not sure, but now I am worried I messed up. But I suppose I am wondering what, and how much I really should dose with, for a 90 gallon DT and 20 gallon sump. Also wondering if I should be testing for anything else? How important is it to test magnesium, and is there anything else I should test for?

Also note, I only use a skimmer and a refuge, bioballs, and a DSB for filtration, in addition to the UV light I installed recently.

I have a filter sock and some GFO in my shopping cart at an online reef retailer right now. But also considering a dosing machine.

jsker · Dec 25, 2018

I would say that you Nitrites and Calcium are you main issue right now.

What are you testing with?

SirRoadwolf · Dec 25, 2018

Hanna testers. 500 Calcium isn't good?

acabgd · Dec 25, 2018

Your nitrates and phosphates are sky-high. Also, there shouldn't be any nitrites and I wouldn't be surprised if you've had some ammonia present as well.

Have you been tracking nitrates recently or is this a sudden jump? If you have corals you should be testing for magnesium too, as it is directly tied to your calcium and alkalinity. Magnesium usually does not decline as much as the other two, but if you have low magnesium you could be dosing way more calcium and alkalinity than you might actually need and you could be seriously out of balance. Your calcium is also higher than recommended.

How often do you make water changes? You would definitely need the GFO but you would need to go very slowly, not add a massive amount and strip the phosphates too fast. Large water changes should help with nitrates. Are you using RO/DI water? Get a magnesium test kit and find out why your calcium is so high.

How much is "a bit of vinegar"?

Merry Christmas!

SirRoadwolf · Dec 25, 2018

I put 1/2 cup of vinegar in the sump.

Keep in mind that nitrite measurement is ppb, not ppm. Typically it will measure around 40-70 ppb. And in the past my nitrates, and phosphates have been less than 0.1 So yeah, it is quite a spike. The biggest change recently was the UV light. I also noticed one of my corals which used to be very strong, begin to bleach out over the 2 weeks. 4 of the other corals seem to be doing alright, but 2 others seem to also be decreasing in size.

I am using RO/DI water. I have a system which adds RO/DI water to a 55gal food grade drum, and then whenever my aquarium calls for more water, it auto tops it off with that water.

acabgd · Dec 25, 2018

SirRoadwolf said:
I put 1/2 cup of vinegar in the sump.

I'd say that's a bit too much for a beginning.

Saw that nitrite is ppb, yet that's still almost 0.2ppm. Might be just the test, but the sudden jump in nitrates means something is out of whack. Can you say again what you're measuring your PO4 with and what are your levels? You've mentioned above they were at 0.1 and now are at 2.78?

SirRoadwolf · Dec 25, 2018

I'll have to check my paperwork when I am at home again, but 2.78 I believe is what the reading was, yes... { Am at work right now... yeah.. Merry Christmas }. But I am measuring PO4 and NO3 and KH and Calcium with an API chemical test kit. I am measuring PO4 and NO2 with hanna digital testers. So PO4 gets tested two ways. Both tests were about the same result.

Also of note, was that in the last few days, my skimmer has been going crazy.

SirRoadwolf · Dec 25, 2018

I confirmed 2.5 PO4 was the actual reading. Remains the same today. I have some water prepping for a water change as I write this.

SirRoadwolf · Dec 26, 2018

How large of a water change would anyone suggest? I could easily do a 20% change. but beyond that I will need to jerry rig some more temporary tanks up for temporary water storage.

acabgd · Dec 26, 2018

Your PO4 level is massive. You can lower it by growing macroalgae or ATS or using GFO, aluminum oxide, or lanthanum chloride. Please note you cannot substantially lower PO4 levels by doing only water changes.

You should do a 20% change and then re-test while getting a new batch ready.

rkpetersen · Dec 26, 2018

With those numbers you have a long way to go and a fair amount of work before the tank is in a happy place.

Definitely start with water changes. With those high nitrate and phosphate numbers, water changes will give you the most immediate absolute drop without adversely affecting other parameters. Also, for any given time period, multiple small water changes done frequently will be nearly as effective as one large water change, and far less disruptive. In addition to water changes, you'll want to keep both nitrate and phosphate heading down, and this can be accomplished with macroalgae in a fuge or an algae scrubber or carbon dosing. If you do carbon dosing start slow and work up; also don't dose it directly into the tank, put it in the overflow. If your nitrate drops to a reasonable level and you still need to bring phosphate down further, then I would judiciously and temporarily add GFO as the last step.

UV won't be harming nitrifying or denitrifying bacteria to any significant extent, as they live on surfaces. Your calcium is a bit high which is odd but should come down with water changes. What's in your refugium? I'd ditch the bioballs, they're old tech that isn't really needed and will accumulate detritus resulting in a nitrate factory. I personally do test for magnesium as I also dose it, but some feel that testing for it isn't necessary.

SirRoadwolf · Dec 27, 2018

I did about a 30% water change. It was very slick, I was excited how well it went. I redirected my return lines, and set up some pumps to pump water into the sump from the tank i was prepping the new water in. I had the new water mixed for 1.035 SG, and that seemed to work amazingly well when mixed with the ATO water which was also running while I was doing a water change. The tanks salt levels didn't change at all... I measured all over the place during the whole process. tank stayed at 1.025 It was glorious.

But as you said, it only managed to bring the phosphates down to about 2.0.. which still, hey. i am happy with it. My nitrates are also down to about 30, which seems like a larger drop than I would of expected given the phosphate drop, but then again, I had already dosed vinegar.

I added some photos of my messy sump setup, lol.

Sump Operation:
Return feeds into skimmer cavity, with a Skimz skimmer located in there. Not sure of the model off the top of my head, but it is about twice as big as it needs to be for my 90 gals.
There is a small circulation pump in that cavity too, and then the water passes into the bioball chamber, from there it passes through about 2lbs of Biohome Ultimate, then into the fuge. In the fuge I have about 1 inch of sand and a bunch of chaeto. There is a Kessil H80 lamp lighting that area all the time.
From there it passes into the return pump, again there is an additional circulation pump in there too to keep the water moving.

ATO is from a tank of purified water, and is added whenever the level in the return pump section drops.

DT has about 4 inches of sand. + 300 lbs of live rock.

SirRoadwolf · Dec 28, 2018

As of last evening, my phosphates are down below 1.5 and nitrates are at about 20. Is it normal for it to work that quick? The posts above hinted that it may take some more time?

acabgd · Dec 28, 2018

The levels are so high that yes - it's normal. Phosphate at 1.5 is still very, very high.

ZaneTer · Dec 28, 2018

Have you considered using lanthanum chloride? It selectively removes phosphate.

SirRoadwolf · Jan 1, 2019

Woo, Happy New Year!

Thank you all for your help, things seem to be getting back on track. I did lose 2 SPS corals, sadly - and also a mushroom coral, but the soft corals seem to be doing well. There is still a ways to go, but I did end up getting myself a dosing machine, and am dosing 10ml of RedSea Algae, phosphate and nitrate control per day. Which essentially is similar to a vinegar or vodka solution.

My readings are now as follows:

1.026 salt @ 77 degrees.
KH = 9
PH = 8 ? (I bought a PH test kit, but then realized it says it is for fresh water... is there a different kit for Ph in salt water? I had heard it is roughly the same as KH? Some clarification would be nice...)
Calcium = 560 (it spiked when I added new salt water... )
PO4 = 0.61
NO3 = 15 ppm
NO4 = 46 ppb

rkpetersen · Jan 1, 2019

Sorry about your corals. No fun to lose any livestock. Sounds like you're getting a handle on everything now so that's good.

You should get a saltwater pH test kit. It's a different range than freshwater pH.

Your numbers are improving. Still a good ways to go on phosphate. With your nitrate where it is, you might want to consider decreasing/tapering carbon dosing and add some GFO or Phosguard in a reactor to bring the phosphate down further relative to the nitrate. Also, phosphate adsorbs to rocks while nitrate doesn't, so expect getting that phosphate level down to be some work and it might even go up again before finally dropping to a reasonable range. You could also try lanthanum chloride as already mentioned. If you do, read up on it and use it carefully as it can pull a lot of phosphate out of the water very quickly.

NO4? If you mean ammonia NH3 or nitrite NO2, both of these should be zero with an active biofilter. Note that saltwater fish aren't affected by nitrite much at all, and many people never measure it after tank startup, if even then.

Not sure why your calcium is so high and getting higher. What salt do you use? Maybe switch to one with a lower calcium level and hopefully it should drift down on it's own with future water changes. Top off water should always be pure RODI water of course. Elevated calcium isn't an acute problem but in the long term it can cause increased precipitation on heaters, in sand and especially on pumps which might cause them to fail.

SirRoadwolf · Jan 2, 2019

rkpetersen said:
You could also try lanthanum chloride as already mentioned.

NO4? If you mean ammonia NH3 or nitrite NO2, both of these should be zero with an active biofilter. Note that saltwater fish aren't affected by nitrite much at all, and many people never measure it after tank startup, if even then.

Yeah Nitrite... I meant to type NO2, my fingers being silly and typing too quick. I did order some Lanthanum Chloride. I am using the RedSea Coral Pro Salt. Which might explain the higher calcium. I have noticed calcium deposits, but have been keeping the heaters clean. Top off water is indeed pure RODI.

rkpetersen · Jan 2, 2019

SirRoadwolf said:
Yeah Nitrite... I meant to type NO2, my fingers being silly and typing too quick. I did order some Lanthanum Chloride. I am using the RedSea Coral Pro Salt. Which might explain the higher calcium. I have noticed calcium deposits, but have been keeping the heaters clean. Top off water is indeed pure RODI.

They really jack up the calcium, alk, and magnesium with Coral Pro. Unless you've got a lot of actively growing stony corals, Red Sea Salt in the blue bucket might give you better numbers.