I wanna keep sponges

[dennis romano]

Near as I've been able to ascertain, most sponges found on reefs will feed off any labile DOC (aka carbon dosing). In light of how problematic excess labile DOC is for corals it seems reasonable cryptic sponges have saved corals, at least on the short term, by removing it faster than microbes (1000X faster than bacterioplankton) when aquarists add it to thier systems. Unfortunately, one of the problems researchers are uncovering is sponges and algae work together to create positive feedback loops that promote algae dominance. I'm critisized for dropping data bombs but reef ecosystems are very complex and practices are being recommended that research shows is detrimental and will cause chonic to acute problems for corals. So here's some links if your interested in understanding better how reef ecosystens work,

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"




FYI: DOC can be roughly seperated into three catagories, Labile, Semirefractory and Refractory. Most of the following papaers are looking mainly at Labile DOC. This will raise the hackles on some reefers but keep in mind Labile DOC and Carbon Dosing are synonamous. Jasper deGeoij's work shows cryptic sponges remove labile DOC about a thousand times faster than bacterioplankton. Included are links to some of the research showing what cryptic sponges are doing as well. Also, researchers tend to use DOM (Dissolved Organic Matter) and DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) interchangebly.

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

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besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu

academic.oup.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

I have a degree in Environmental Biology so this is easy reading LOL.

 

[Timfish]

I am a colossal nerd so knowledge bombs are most welcomed! I'm personally attempting to do a sponge and macroalgae dominated tank, so the positive feedback loop is good news for me.

I'm not I'm only a quarter way done.

FWIW, I first started researching and reading what it takes to set up a saltwater system 40 years ago and I'm still behind.

 

[Subsea]

I have a degree in Environmental Biology so this is easy reading LOL.

I have a BS degree in Marine Engineering from the Texas Maratime Academy and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

In 1970, pHd Marine Biologist, Martin Moe said about reef aquarium ecosystems, after landing a man on the moon:

“It’s not rocket science, it’s more complicated”.

 

[randomfishdude]

I kinda want to do something with reefs and whatnot. I know I want to be a engineer.
I could be alot of things since I have 3 big main hobby now that I somehow have time for.
What I want to do also depends on where I want to go live. If I stay here in the u s of a. I'll prob be a hardwhere engineer. If not imma move to aruba and I guess be some sort of maritime engineer.

 

[dennis romano]

I have a BS degree in Marine Engineering from the Texas Maratime Academy and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

In 1970, pHd Marine Biologist, Martin Moe said about reef aquarium ecosystems, after landing a man on the moon:

“It’s not rocket science, it’s more complicated”.

How very true. I look at some of the topics discussed on this site and go Huh? We didn't cover some of these chemistry topics in Biochemistry or Organic Chemistry. PS Martin Moe was great.

 

[Subsea]

I'm not I'm only a quarter way done.

@Timfish introduced me to cryptic sponges and @Paul B introduced me to reverse flow undergravel filters which I use as a cryptic refugium.

 

[Subsea]

I am a colossal nerd so knowledge bombs are most welcomed! I'm personally attempting to do a sponge and macroalgae dominated tank, so the positive feedback loop is good news for me.

Buried deep in information bomb:

DOC from coral is mostly lipids & proteins and DOC from algae is mostly carbohydrates, which is glucose or sugar.

@randomfishdude
I will caution you on macro dominated and suggest you mimic a Caribbean mixed garden lagoon. Let biodiversity of micro fauna & fana operate your ecosystem.

You don’t need to know the biochemistry; the little people already know what to do after millions of years of fine tuning: gene expression happens with crosstalk between bacteria and this is the feedback loop.

 

[Weaverjay101]

Buried deep in information bomb:

DOC from coral is mostly lipids & proteins and DOC from algae is mostly carbohydrates, which is glucose or sugar.

@randomfishdude
I will caution you on macro dominated and suggest you mimic a Caribbean mixed garden lagoon. Let biodiversity of micro fauna & fana operate your ecosystem.

You don’t need to know the biochemistry; the little people already know what to do after millions of years of fine tuning: gene expression happens with crosstalk between bacteria and this is the feedback loop.

So you're saying that I should do corals, sponges, and macroalgae?

 

[Timfish]

So you're saying that I should do corals, sponges, and macroalgae?

You don’t need to know the biochemistry . . .

I would expound on Pat's comment - we can't know the biochemistry, researchers are still trying to figure it all out. Since we can't determine how adding labile DOC to a system will effect the microbial processes in coral holobionts but the research is clear that uncontrolled microbial growth is detrimental to corals I would not add any form of labile DOC to a system.

If you are wanting a macro dominate system, and I've seen a couple stunning ones, there are corals that may thive in such a system. Pocillopora damicornis is one as it's found in mangrove swamps. But ytou will need to do your research. Coral immune systems can vary significantly at the genotype level. To compound the difficulty, corals alse develop "memories" (the epigenetics mentioned) of their environment they grew in. Getting a colony that has been growing in different conditions may be incapable of adapting to your system. You're going to want look for really robust corals and expect failures.

 

[Weaverjay101]

I would expound on Pat's comment - we can't know the biochemistry, researchers are still trying to figure it all out. Since we can't determine how adding labile DOC to a system will effect the microbial processes in coral holobionts but the research is clear that uncontrolled microbial growth is detrimental to corals I would not add any form of labile DOC to a system.

If you are wanting a macro dominate system, and I've seen a couple stunning ones, there are corals that may thive in such a system. Pocillopora damicornis is one as it's found in mangrove swamps. But ytou will need to do your research. Coral immune systems can vary significantly at the genotype level. To compound the difficulty, corals alse develop "memories" (the epigenetics mentioned) of their environment they grew in. Getting a colony that has been growing in different conditions may be incapable of adapting to your system. You're going to want look for really robust corals and expect failures.

Sponges are what I mainly want to keep. I'm just looking for what helps feed them. I know that corals and macroalgae both produce excess DOC that the sponges use for food.

 

[dennis romano]

Here is my tank where I keep my sponges. As you can see, I have Caulerpa growing. The problem with the macro is that I found that it is taking nutrients away from the Gorgonians and mushrooms. When the macro flourishes, the corals recede, so I must constantly weed out the excess macro. The sponges seem to perk up when the macro is pulled out. I believe it is because of

the sediment being disturbed. Detritus enters water column, feeding the sponges.

 

[strich]

I have dosed 1G into a 55G tank. My phyto culture was not very dark, which I have found to be less prone to crash.

Do you still dose >1g phyto often?

My tank makes its own phyto in that I grow ornamental macro whose exudates are laudable DOC (dissolved organic carbon) which is a food for sponges.

Can you expand on this? Are you saying there are macro that generate phyto? Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.

Diatoms are a type of phytoplankton and their crystalline truce requires silicates as do sponges.

Do you nurture diatoms in your sump or similarly culture and dose them?

Would love to see a more in depth look at the setup of your tanks! I've read a lot of your threads on this forum and loved it all thank you. Would you ever consider getting your setup on video?

 

[Subsea]

Do you still dose >1g phyto often?

Can you expand on this? Are you saying there are macro that generate phyto? Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.

Do you nurture diatoms in your sump or similarly culture and dose them?

Would love to see a more in depth look at the setup of your tanks! I've read a lot of your threads on this forum and loved it all thank you. Would you ever consider getting your setup on video?

I will get back on the video at a later date.

With respect to diatoms, nobody needs to cultivate them, they happen when silicates are in the water and if you are growing sponges, you best be dosing silicates.

PS: “Can you expand on this? Are you saying there are macro that generate phyto? Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.“

I incorrectly indicated that macro algae produced phytoplankton. Macro algae produces labile DOC.
Diatoms are a type of phytoplankton .

 

[Subsea]

Do you still dose >1g phyto often?

Can you expand on this? Are you saying there are macro that generate phyto? Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.

Do you nurture diatoms in your sump or similarly culture and dose them?

Would love to see a more in depth look at the setup of your tanks! I've read a lot of your threads on this forum and loved it all thank you. Would you ever consider getting your setup on video?

Diatom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The study of diatoms is a branch of phycology. Diatoms are classified as eukaryotes, organisms with a nuclear envelope-bound cell nucleus, that separates them from the prokaryotes archaea and bacteria. Diatoms are a type of plankton called phytoplankton, the most common of the plankton types. Diatoms also grow attached to benthic substrates, floating debris, and on macrophytes. They comprise an integral component of the periphyton community.[22] Another classification divides plankton into eight types based on size: in this scheme, diatoms are classed as microalgae. Several systems for classifying the individual diatom species exist.

 

[Subsea]

Interactions between Diatoms and Bacteria

Summary: Diatoms and bacteria have cooccurred in common habitats for hundreds of millions of years, thus fostering specific associations and interactions with global biogeochemical consequences. Diatoms are responsible for one-fifth of the photosynthesis ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“In this review, we focus on interactions between two important groups of marine microbes, diatoms and bacteria. Diatoms are ubiquitous photosynthetic eukaryotes that are responsible for about 20% of photosynthesis on Earth (Fig. 1A). They serve as the base of the marine food web when they are consumed by higher eukaryotes, and they can also serve as food for heterotrophic bacteria.”

@Timfish
This article got over my pay grade. I thought you may be interested in it.

 

[Timfish]

. . . @Timfish
This article got over my pay grade. I thought you may be interested in it.

Then it's gotta be over mine too Pat. But I do enjoy trying to parse what some of these papers are saying.

 

[randomfishdude]

I don't have a pay grade!

 

[mikst]

Buried deep in information bomb:

DOC from coral is mostly lipids & proteins and DOC from algae is mostly carbohydrates, which is glucose or sugar.

@randomfishdude
I will caution you on macro dominated and suggest you mimic a Caribbean mixed garden lagoon. Let biodiversity of micro fauna & fana operate your ecosystem.

You don’t need to know the biochemistry; the little people already know what to do after millions of years of fine tuning: gene expression happens with crosstalk between bacteria and this is the feedback loop.

had a good time reading this entire thread, much of those links are above my ability. I'm looking at having a typical reduction with chaeto, but also a cryptic sump for sponges and detrivores and such. My display will be corals, and fish. I was considering some macro algae but I'm undecided. I want to have diversity as much as possible. If each component can help another in the system to.create balance, that's my goal.

You mentioned somewhere it sounded like that if you have too much macro it will be to the detriment of the coral s?

 

[mikst]

had a good time reading this entire thread, much of those links are above my ability. I'm looking at having a typical edit: REFUGIUM with chaeto,

Sorry, had to quite myself to make above correction. I feel dumb, I can't figure out how to edit my original list. My tablet is particularly difficult to type on.