I Was Wrong

[Reefering1]

....
@trapphd

I don't need scientific proof, just talk some common sense that "us" Neanderthals can understand...

 

[jabberwock]

Looking for the perspective of the "professional". Maybe its something that makes sense

Understood and agreed.

I have been an environmental scientist for almost 20 years. In my professional opinion, we know a lot less than many people choose to pretend.

 

[jabberwock]

So, without singling out anybody, I want to make this point.

When people say "there is no debate" or "the science is done", they leave the rails of everything the real scientific method dictates that scientists do. That is to repeat the scientific method. Lines of evidence are formed (or not formed), but the scientific method does not ever mention "proof". I know a whole bunch of scientists that don't understand this.

My point is that it is OK, and usually better to say, "I don't know." This is a very defendable statement.

 

[Reefering1]

Understood and agreed.

I have been an environmental scientist for almost 20 years. In my professional opinion, we know a lot less than many people choose to pretend.

Ok, that makes sense.. so what is your take on all this?

 

[jabberwock]

Well, I don't know...

But my informed opinion is that all of this anthropogenic climate change discussion is a politically charged effort to elevate human importance and influence to an idolatrous religious level.

It is a form of self worship. We don't need God. We can fix it ourselves.

Meanwhile, my company is conducting avian mortality data collection on "wind farms". We create a lot of our own problems.

 

[Lothar]

Well, I’m not a scientist or higher educated person, but I think a lot of it comes down to too many people. Sad to say, short of a large human extinction event, I don’t think it will turn around.

 

[Doctorgori]

Thats weird as we were in keys Tuesday about 8 miles out and saw very little bleaching except for 3 large rock structures and from the looks of coral, they were bleached but not dead and if water temps cool, may be able to bounce back. Team research group in Key Largo have been pulling some of the bleached specimens to bring back to their lab to see if they can promote recovery according to one of the students on our catamaran.

Who has the authority or permission to even touch a Atlantic hard coral? and if so, how the heck do you even obtain permission?
…on a related note, I’ve pm’d a few vendors & individuals around here in this vein and got nothing but crickets…
@vetteguy53081 ANY chance the avg hobbyist can help save these corals?
maybe a collective crowd sourced captive bread initiative?

 

[Lavey29]

Well, I’m not a scientist or higher educated person, but I think a lot of it comes down to too many people. Sad to say, short of a large human extinction event, I don’t think it will turn around.

NWO just did a test run for this with covid

 

[Lavey29]

Well, let's not sing the praises of renewables and EVs without also pointing out the shortfalls, namely the massive amount of hazardous and non-recyclable waste in the form of wind blades, discarded solar panels and the incredible environmental destruction that nickel, cobalt and lithium mining are wreaking primarily in the third world.

Europe went green 20 years ago. How they looking over there? Freezing in the winter, frying in the summer and having to work until 105 before retirement...lol

 

[biophilia]

Who has the authority or permission to even touch a Atlantic hard coral? and if so, how the heck do you even obtain permission?
…on a related note, I’ve pm’d a few vendors & individuals around here in this vein and got nothing but crickets…
@vetteguy53081 ANY chance the avg hobbyist can help save these corals?
maybe a collective crowd sourced captive bread initiative?

The biosecurity controls necessary to safely aquaculture Florida’s corals and reintroduce them to the wild wouldn’t be practical or even possible in hobbyist aquariums. Implications of inadvertently spreading stony coral tissue loss disease among the vulnerable remaining wild colonies would make it too big of a risk. Also there are population genetic considerations that are considerable and would have to be carefully managed.

Also, the immense scale of even just the Florida reef tract means that even a huge hobbyist initiative would have virtually zero real world impact unfortunately. Florida’s reefs alone are the equivalent of 1.6 billion 200 gallon aquariums. If every reef hobbyist in the US bought a 200 gallon aquarium and packed it with frags of A. palmata or A. cervicornis, or Diploria, grew them out, and replanted in the wild, it would represent an area of less than 0.02% of reef tract. And those corals, if not selectively bred to be resistant to SCTLD or inoculated with heat-stress tolerant symbiodinium clades would face the same challenging world and grim future their wild counterparts do.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Who has the authority or permission to even touch a Atlantic hard coral? and if so, how the heck do you even obtain permission?
…on a related note, I’ve pm’d a few vendors & individuals around here in this vein and got nothing but crickets…
@vetteguy53081 ANY chance the avg hobbyist can help save these corals?
maybe a collective crowd sourced captive bread initiative?

This group is state certified and permitted to collect and plant as they since 2019 were adding small colonies for culturing to re-establish coral and then this hit.
As for hobbyist- First action I would do is to contact the state for direction. We wanted to keep a conch, and it was the boat captain that said to throw it back as fines start at $500 at airport

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

I study climate, and I would totally disagree about "zero debate". There is zero debate amongst climate scientist who agree with each other. Let's do science!

There is a lot of debate about the specifics, like effects, rapidity, timing, reversibility and so forth. But there is no legitimate debate about the central tenets.

1.) The Earth is warming due to increased levels of CO2
2.) The cause of the increase is human activity

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

Polar bears are not even remotely going extinct (at least in our lifetime, anyway). They'll end up migrating south and probably breeding with other bear species. Not sure what's worse - polar bears migrating south or the new crop of mutant polar bear hybrids...

If they interbreed, they have by definition gone extinct. They will simply be absorbed into the much larger Brown Bear population.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

....
@trapphd

I don't need scientific proof, just talk some common sense that "us" Neanderthals can understand...

Regarding what?

 

[Kato]

There is a lot of debate about the specifics, like effects, rapidity, timing, reversibility and so forth. But there is no legitimate debate about the central tenets.

1.) The Earth is warming due to increased levels of CO2
2.) The cause of the increase is human activity

Exactly. Also when people say it happened before, they forget it took thousands of years, if not millions. It's pretty easy to see on charts it started this time during the industrial age.

And what is it, 99.9999% of all scientists agree here it is human made.
The more interesting part is why some refuse to believe it or change course. And yes, personally I do believe we can turn it around. Might as well go all the way while we are at it and not just look at co2 but polution in general and find solutions to each and every one of them. I mean, why not.

And some countries do try to find solutions a lot more effectively and focussed than others. We will need the majority of them for it to work.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

Exactly. Also when people say it happened before, they forget it took thousands of years, if not millions. It's pretty easy to see on charts it started this time during the industrial age.

And what is it, 99.9999% of all scientists agree here it is human made.
The more interesting part is why some refuse to believe it or change course. And yes, personally I do believe we can turn it around. Might as well go all the way while we are at it and not just look at co2 but polution in general and find solutions to each and every one of them. I mean, why not.

And some countries do try to find solutions a lot more effectively and focussed than others. We will need the majority of them for it to work.

There is very clear isotopic evidence that :

The additional carbon is biogenic (non-mantle).
The carbon being added is from coal, oil and natural gas.

Here is a good, basic explanation (From Climate.gov) :

"Carbon-14 (or 14C) is also known as radiocarbon, because it is the only carbon isotope that is radioactive. It is perhaps most famous for its use in radiocarbon dating of archeological artifacts ranging from mummies to cave drawings, and it plays a crucial role in studying fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions as well.


Fossil fuels are, well, fossils, and are millions of years old. Because of this, all of the radiocarbon initially present has decayed away, leaving no 14C in this ancient organic matter. All other atmospheric carbon dioxide comes from young sources–namely land-use changes (for example, cutting down a forest in order to create a farm) and exchange with the ocean and terrestrial biosphere. This makes 14C an ideal tracer of carbon dioxide coming from the combustion of fossil fuels. Scientists can use 14C measurements to determine how much 14CO2 has been diluted with 14C-free CO2 in air samples, and from this can calculate what proportion of the carbon dioxide in the sample comes from fossil fuels."

 

[Kato]

Wanted to say one more thing. I'm not a climate fanatic by any means, honestly. I do what I can and keep an open mind yet sceptic about certain things. But I always play this experiment in my head:

a) Imagine you set fire to the gas in your car. It's going to be a big one that burns a lot of nice black smoke. Probably the biggest fire you had on your property
b) Imagine you just take the cars on your neighborhood road. Probably the biggest fire you have ever seen
c) Imagine the town you live in. The fire will be visible from the moon
d) Now the country, multiple countries..
e) Now do this weekly
f) For 100 years

If for some reason you think the above is fine and has no consequences, then well, I don't know what to say.

 

[Kato]

There is very clear isotopic evidence that :

The additional carbon is biogenic (non-mantle).
The carbon being added is from coal, oil and natural gas.

Here is a good, basic explanation (From Climate.gov) :

"Carbon-14 (or 14C) is also known as radiocarbon, because it is the only carbon isotope that is radioactive. It is perhaps most famous for its use in radiocarbon dating of archeological artifacts ranging from mummies to cave drawings, and it plays a crucial role in studying fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions as well.


Fossil fuels are, well, fossils, and are millions of years old. Because of this, all of the radiocarbon initially present has decayed away, leaving no 14C in this ancient organic matter. All other atmospheric carbon dioxide comes from young sources–namely land-use changes (for example, cutting down a forest in order to create a farm) and exchange with the ocean and terrestrial biosphere. This makes 14C an ideal tracer of carbon dioxide coming from the combustion of fossil fuels. Scientists can use 14C measurements to determine how much 14CO2 has been diluted with 14C-free CO2 in air samples, and from this can calculate what proportion of the carbon dioxide in the sample comes from fossil fuels."

What is it exactly you are saying? Whats the plan? Just trying to understand what you wrote. Sorry I don't fully understand the implications. Do we burn more? Less? Different things?

We have to create energy or our lifestyle will be changed to the point where no-one will participate.

 

[Doctorgori]

Hardly soapboxing here but reminding that the “mayor” will shut down a great, productive thread (finally)…
Anyway, usually sans the political stuff (I’m also sometimes guilty) …. this is a pretty good/important topic
I’ve been sorta “solutions” focused anymore…..

As for cause/effect/politics/et ,,,, safe to say that anymore seems NOBODY is stepping outside their own preset biases, that IMO have been brainwashed by the media(s) we choose to home in on (further convincing/reinforcing already held beliefs)

…we should strive to listen to opposing ideas and drill into why the opposition is likewise oppositely convinced

 

[Doctorgori]

The biosecurity controls necessary to safely aquaculture Florida’s corals and reintroduce them to the wild wouldn’t be practical or even possible in hobbyist aquariums. Implications of inadvertently spreading stony coral tissue loss disease among the vulnerable remaining wild colonies would make it too big of a risk. Also there are population genetic considerations that are considerable and would have to be carefully managed.

Also, the immense scale of even just the Florida reef tract means that even a huge hobbyist initiative would have virtually zero real world impact unfortunately. Florida’s reefs alone are the equivalent of 1.6 billion 200 gallon aquariums. If every reef hobbyist in the US bought a 200 gallon aquarium and packed it with frags of A. palmata or A. cervicornis, or Diploria, grew them out, and replanted in the wild, it would represent an area of less than 0.02% of reef tract. And those corals, if not selectively bred to be resistant to SCTLD or inoculated with heat-stress tolerant symbiodinium clades would face the same challenging world and grim future their wild counterparts do.

That’s a great explanation and totally makes sense… my only counter is there are several examples of species only existing in domestication but not in the wild…unfortunately seems the big cats and a few other large mammals are headed in that direction ….

…nature is indeed resistant, but the speed of change is usually measured in millennia, not decades… so while there are urban leopards near Nairobi and Mumbai, I don’t see lions or tigers adapting in the same proximity to civilization…
OTOH even Elephants can apparently “evolve” in real time even with a slow fecundity rate
BTW you should see the white tails near urban areas in the Midwest …I think the lack of hunting pressure is creating trophy bucks…
..in a similar vein, I saw that video of corals in Miami’s canals, seem to me this represents a under utilized opportunity
maybe the surviving corals of this heatwave is another genetic opportunity