I was Wrong

[Timfish]

I have no proof it was bacteria, but it seems logical and I don’t what what else it would be. In 20 of reefing with the same basic setup it was the only time my water was hazy aside from when adding new sand, and it came and went only with my highest doses of vinegar with nothing else changed.

Seems to me Archaea and Eukaryota are just as likely.

As I understand your posts you don't believe you've seen the effects of labile DOC affecting the microbiomes of corals?

I've never been in a situation where I'd know it was happening or not.

Why do you believe the reduced exapansion and browning you saw with your animals when you dosed vinegar is not evidence of excess labile DOC affecting their microbiomes?

 

[Timfish]

As I understand your posts you don't believe you've seen the effects of labile DOC affecting the microbiomes of corals?

I've never been in a situation where I'd know it was happening or not.

Maybe I worded my question badly. What was your reasoning you decided the browning you saw when you dosed vinegar was not altering the microbiomes? Because that would have seemed resonable since even if it was just zooxanthellae they're certainly part of the coral microbiome.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe I worded my question badly. What was your reasoning you decided the browning you saw when you dosed vinegar was not altering the microbiomes? Because that would have seemed resonable since even if it was just zooxanthellae they're certainly part of the coral microbiome.

I think it increased zooxanthellae levels.

The browning does not suggest a coral health problem to me. Just an aesthetic preference of most aquarists.

I also do not dispute that the aquarium bacteria populations also likely changed, but I don't see that as a "problem" either.

 

[Cory]

Kudos! Research shows there's stuff in our tanks that's best removed with water changes (refractory DOC can be removed with blooms of heterotrophic bacteria but that's not what we want happening in our tanks). Seems to me claiming water changes are unessessary is claiming perpetual chemical energy engines are real. A ssytem may be "efficient" and produce just small amounts of the hydrophillic stuff that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes and just minimal amounts of refractory DOC but it's just a matter of time before problems arise and I don't see how anyone can keep reefs for their normal life expectancies without water changes.

Have you seen Glenn fs tanks? He doesn't do water changes in years.

 

[Timfish]

Have you seen Glenn fs tanks? He doesn't do water changes in years.

In the 4 decades I've been keeping reef ssytems I've often heard of aquarists going long times without water changes. Considering it can take 10-20 years (and maybe longer) for corals to mature it seems to me keeping a system "years" likely isn't keeping a system long enough for the all the corals to mature.

We can't quantify healthy microbiomes in corals. We can't quantify whether cryptic sponges are recycling DOC. We can't quantify the types of labile DOC we have in our systems. Having an occasional aquarist go years without water changes really isn't evidence it's a viable way achieve the life expectancies our animals can live.

 

[Cory]

In the 4 decades I've been keeping reef ssytems I've often heard of aquarists going long times without water changes. Considering it can take 10-20 years (and maybe longer) for corals to mature it seems to me keeping a system "years" likely isn't keeping a system long enough for the all the corals to mature.

We can't quantify healthy microbiomes in corals. We can't quantify whether cryptic sponges are recycling DOC. We can't quantify the types of labile DOC we have in our systems. Having an occasional aquarist go years without water changes really isn't evidence it's a viable way achieve the life expectancies our animals can live.

Well, i dont expect he wouldn't do a water change if something went terribly wrong, but it seems in his case hes gifted by the coral gods lol. Iirc his main tank is more than 10 years without water changes. Thats interesting at the very least. I do water changes, but just to remove detritus.