I was Wrong

[Martyd]

I’ve have reef tanks for over 30 years. I built my own metal halide lights from parts and I designed and build my own downdraft skimmer. I’ve been doing it since coral colonies, and I mean big ones, were $20. So a long time …

I’ve had a lot of successes and my share of failures too. The one thing I knew from early on, was that stability was key to being successful.

I made an ATO that worked (most of the time) found a temp controller that was reliable and did regular water changes using a hydrometer. I tested what I could using LaMotte test kits. I was high tech. LOL

As the hobby evolved, more equipment became available, and various additives were the rage, I got lazy. I did things by eye, rather than by a schedule. I relied on additives, rather than water changes and when I lost a coral, I just replaced it. So it was $30 now, not a big deal.

So fast forward 10 years or so. Life got busy and I was out of the hobby for five years and have been back it for five. Wow, how things changed!

LED lighting, controllers, custom made sumps, roller fleece filters, DC pumps, I can go on and on. I guess the biggest negative change, was that the supply of good live rock dried up and then good dry rock, like Tonga, too and of course the cost of corals skyrocketed.

I dove right back in. Quickly went from a 60 gallon tank, to a 110 and then a 150. I started it was the best dry rock I could find, took my time and cycled it correctly and started stocking it with tiny $30 zoa frags and now $100 LPS frags. Ouch!

What didn’t change, was my lazy habits. It was even easier now, with controllers, really good additives, efficient skimmers and great lighting. I did water changes, but not regularly. I tested the water when the mood struck me and still did pretty good, but when I lost a coral, it was more like a $100 loss.

I think the light bulb finally came on when I went to a coral show and sale recently and saw that the $25 zoa frags were more like $50 now and a decent torch or hammer was $200 and up.

I finally realized that I needed to do it the “right”way. I bought myself some good Hanna test kits, learned how to use them properly, got my perimeters under control and did water changes on a set schedule.

What a difference it made! In less than 30 days, my corals opened more, everything was thriving, rather than just surviving, colors were popping and the coralline algae that had always been hit or miss, was a hit.

I know rambled a bit, but the moral to the story is, do your water changes, do them regularly and test your parameters. You will thank me for it!

 

[Chrisv.]

Isn’t the new gear just incredible? I’ve been in the hobby almost as long, and built my fair share of skimmers, calcium reactors, etc… but the gear we have access to now just takes the cake. I finally caved and bought a set of Hanna checkers about a year ago. I have to admit that I test way more frequently and I actually believe my results. I think I’ve performed more water tests in the last year than in the last 10. It’s a great time to be in the hobby.

 

[Miami Reef]

Dang. That’s a stunning tank! I’m amazed!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I’ve have reef tanks for over 30 years. I built my own metal halide lights from parts and I designed and build my own downdraft skimmer. I’ve been doing it since coral colonies, and I mean big ones, were $20. So a long time …

I’ve had a lot of successes and my share of failures too. The one thing I knew from early on, was that stability was key to being successful.

I made an ATO that worked (most of the time) found a temp controller that was reliable and did regular water changes using a hydrometer. I tested what I could using LaMotte test kits. I was high tech. LOL

As the hobby evolved, more equipment became available, and various additives were the rage, I got lazy. I did things by eye, rather than by a schedule. I relied on additives, rather than water changes and when I lost a coral, I just replaced it. So it was $30 now, not a big deal.

So fast forward 10 years or so. Life got busy and I was out of the hobby for five years and have been back it for five. Wow, how things changed!

LED lighting, controllers, custom made sumps, roller fleece filters, DC pumps, I can go on and on. I guess the biggest negative change, was that the supply of good live rock dried up and then good dry rock, like Tonga, too and of course the cost of corals skyrocketed.

I dove right back in. Quickly went from a 60 gallon tank, to a 110 and then a 150. I started it was the best dry rock I could find, took my time and cycled it correctly and started stocking it with tiny $30 zoa frags and now $100 LPS frags. Ouch!

What didn’t change, was my lazy habits. It was even easier now, with controllers, really good additives, efficient skimmers and great lighting. I did water changes, but not regularly. I tested the water when the mood struck me and still did pretty good, but when I lost a coral, it was more like a $100 loss.

I think the light bulb finally came on when I went to a coral show and sale recently and saw that the $25 zoa frags were more like $50 now and a decent torch or hammer was $200 and up.

I finally realized that I needed to do it the “right”way. I bought myself some good Hanna test kits, learned how to use them properly, got my perimeters under control and did water changes on a set schedule.

What a difference it made! In less than 30 days, my corals opened more, everything was thriving, rather than just surviving, colors were popping and the coralline algae that had always been hit or miss, was a hit.

I know rambled a bit, but the moral to the story is, do your water changes, do them regularly and test your parameters. You will thank me for it!

Every new reefer should read this!

 

[mindme]

I’ve have reef tanks for over 30 years. I built my own metal halide lights from parts and I designed and build my own downdraft skimmer. I’ve been doing it since coral colonies, and I mean big ones, were $20. So a long time …

I’ve had a lot of successes and my share of failures too. The one thing I knew from early on, was that stability was key to being successful.

I made an ATO that worked (most of the time) found a temp controller that was reliable and did regular water changes using a hydrometer. I tested what I could using LaMotte test kits. I was high tech. LOL

As the hobby evolved, more equipment became available, and various additives were the rage, I got lazy. I did things by eye, rather than by a schedule. I relied on additives, rather than water changes and when I lost a coral, I just replaced it. So it was $30 now, not a big deal.

So fast forward 10 years or so. Life got busy and I was out of the hobby for five years and have been back it for five. Wow, how things changed!

LED lighting, controllers, custom made sumps, roller fleece filters, DC pumps, I can go on and on. I guess the biggest negative change, was that the supply of good live rock dried up and then good dry rock, like Tonga, too and of course the cost of corals skyrocketed.

I dove right back in. Quickly went from a 60 gallon tank, to a 110 and then a 150. I started it was the best dry rock I could find, took my time and cycled it correctly and started stocking it with tiny $30 zoa frags and now $100 LPS frags. Ouch!

What didn’t change, was my lazy habits. It was even easier now, with controllers, really good additives, efficient skimmers and great lighting. I did water changes, but not regularly. I tested the water when the mood struck me and still did pretty good, but when I lost a coral, it was more like a $100 loss.

I think the light bulb finally came on when I went to a coral show and sale recently and saw that the $25 zoa frags were more like $50 now and a decent torch or hammer was $200 and up.

I finally realized that I needed to do it the “right”way. I bought myself some good Hanna test kits, learned how to use them properly, got my perimeters under control and did water changes on a set schedule.

What a difference it made! In less than 30 days, my corals opened more, everything was thriving, rather than just surviving, colors were popping and the coralline algae that had always been hit or miss, was a hit.

I know rambled a bit, but the moral to the story is, do your water changes, do them regularly and test your parameters. You will thank me for it!

Glad you are having success, your tank looks really nice.

However, water changes are also a thing of the past for some of us. It can still work, don't get me wrong. But it's less than ideal IMO. For me personally, water changes mess my parameters up and actually remove trace elements. I could probably buy/find some salts that are closer to what I want, but those salts are pretty expensive and even then the consistency in the elements doesn't seem to be great.

Let's look at common reasons for water changes. #1 is nutrient export. Removing those phosphates and nitrates. Well there are methods of doing that without water changes that are so good, some people have to dose those nutrients into their tank, even after increasing feeding. Refugiums/ATS, bacteria with carbon dosing, skimmers, socks/rollers etc. And of course, mature tanks will just naturally use more of them anyway.

Next up is commonly cited "To replenish trace elements". And right here I'm just going to flat out say it sucks at doing that. It's basically impossible for water changes to really replenish them properly. People often say "Oh my corals look so good after a water change", but then after 2 or 3 days, it's gone. IMO - trace elements is the reason. Because a few days is about how much the 20% of what's really needed for trace elements is going to last. So, the better way is to dose trace elements with some sort of program. There are multiple ones out there, get the occasional ICP test and get 100% of the trace elements you need full time, not 20% for a few days. I personally use moonshiners method, so I'm dosing individual elements daily based on tank usage. I've use tropic marin in the past also with good success. Water change or not, I think dosing trace elements is needed. Surviving vs thriving.

Outside that, it comes down to pollutants. Which is basically the only reason I would do a water change, and even then it's still a last resort. I really don't get many of these, and metal based ones can usually be extracted with poly filter.

I've done water changes once in the past 1.5 years, and that was due to my alk reagent on my hanna tester telling me my alk was 7 when it was actually over 13. I could see my corals weren't happy, and I had medium levels of aluminum, so I thought the issue was the aluminum. So I did a series of water changes trying to fix that. Luckily I happened to change reagents in the meantime and the new reagents let me know my alk was super high. So I just let it drop back down to the 8.5ish that I like. If not for that episode, I'd be coming up on 2 years with no water changes. Lots of people have done it for even longer.

I am much happier no longer doing water changes, no longer feeling guilty about not doing them, etc. I spend about 2 minutes every day(and about 5 minutes a few days a month) dosing elements and that's using the method that requires the most attention. Quick measure out of the bottle, squirt it in the tank, 4 or 5 of them and done. And the colors are really good.

 

[Timfish]

Kudos! Research shows there's stuff in our tanks that's best removed with water changes (refractory DOC can be removed with blooms of heterotrophic bacteria but that's not what we want happening in our tanks). Seems to me claiming water changes are unessessary is claiming perpetual chemical energy engines are real. A ssytem may be "efficient" and produce just small amounts of the hydrophillic stuff that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes and just minimal amounts of refractory DOC but it's just a matter of time before problems arise and I don't see how anyone can keep reefs for their normal life expectancies without water changes.

 

[WVNed]

Luckily I never joined team water change or team not water change.
I have been doing this a long time my own way and I still am.

 

[pecan2phat]

I hear you in regards to nostalgia brother!
Started my foray into fish only tanks with dead coral skeletons filled with tap water and Kordon Novaqua water conditioner back in "77.
Did not get my 1st reef ready drilled tank with Berlin sump filter until '88, bioballs were so sci-fi Lol!

 

[ReefGeezer]

I feel ya. My first skimmer ran on balsa air blocks! I built Venturi driven ones when few were commercially available. Good looking tank!

 

[Koh23]

If 10% water change remove 10% polution, then same 10% water change ads same amount of trace elements.

10% in small system is a lot, 10% in largr tank is undetectable....

So, if 500l have 50 no3, replacing 10% of water will remove 5ppm no3, then it will be 45, which is same acceptable or unacceotable as 50....

So, really never been a fan of claiming "do" or "dont do" water changes, rather observe, test and find what work best for you, each tank is specific and what works for one probably dont work for another.

It can be beneficial, it can make huge difference, but also, it can be contraproductive....

 

[mindme]

Kudos! Research shows there's stuff in our tanks that's best removed with water changes (refractory DOC can be removed with blooms of heterotrophic bacteria but that's not what we want happening in our tanks). Seems to me claiming water changes are unessessary is claiming perpetual chemical energy engines are real. A ssytem may be "efficient" and produce just small amounts of the hydrophillic stuff that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes and just minimal amounts of refractory DOC but it's just a matter of time before problems arise and I don't see how anyone can keep reefs for their normal life expectancies without water changes.

If water changes works for you and you are happy, then that's all that matters. I'm just saying there are other methods that don't require water changes that are being used successfully.

It's not at all perpetual and that is a gross mischaracterization. I dose elements daily based on how much the corals in my tank are using. That would be Iodine, Manganese, Chromium, Cobalt and Iron. Vanadium in the future, but my previous method had me high in Vanadium so I haven't needed it for the past few months. These are small doses, usually less than 1 ml. Iron is basically 3 drops. Manganese requires 1.5ml. Once a month I dose like 7 other elements, they do not oxidize as quickly, so they get bigger doses.

I have a refugium, filter socks, a skimmer and carbon dose for nutrient export. GAC for other things. If I had a problem in that area I'd probably add ozone(kind of scares me though) to go along with the GAC. Certainly not perpetual since I have to clean the socks, empty the skimmer cup, remove the excess macro algae and dose the carbon.

Seems to me that you're still hooked on that old school outlook that anything other than doing water changes is bad husbandry. That thinking is outdated.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I don't change water for nutrient control. That stopped a long time ago, as it has for many. I do 10%-ish weekly simply to move the needle back toward the original ion and trace element composition. It's not a reset, just a nudge that slows the change. I do more if something seems amiss, and skip a week or two if things look particularly well.

If the expenses associated with this hobby allow me to retire and I have a lot of time to waste... I mean dedicate to my tank... maybe I'll dose trace elements per Triton or some other process of the day just so I have something to do. A guy can only fish and play golf so much I guess.

 

[Martyd]

If water changes works for you and you are happy, then that's all that matters. I'm just saying there are other methods that don't require water changes that are being used successfully.

It's not at all perpetual and that is a gross mischaracterization. I dose elements daily based on how much the corals in my tank are using. That would be Iodine, Manganese, Chromium, Cobalt and Iron. Vanadium in the future, but my previous method had me high in Vanadium so I haven't needed it for the past few months. These are small doses, usually less than 1 ml. Iron is basically 3 drops. Manganese requires 1.5ml. Once a month I dose like 7 other elements, they do not oxidize as quickly, so they get bigger doses.

I have a refugium, filter socks, a skimmer and carbon dose for nutrient export. GAC for other things. If I had a problem in that area I'd probably add ozone(kind of scares me though) to go along with the GAC. Certainly not perpetual since I have to clean the socks, empty the skimmer cup, remove the excess macro algae and dose the carbon.

Seems to me that you're still hooked on that old school outlook that anything other than doing water changes is bad husbandry. That thinking is outdated.

There is no right or wrong way. I’m sure everyone that has success, follows a set of basic best practices, that most of us mirror in one way or the other.

I was just pointing out what works for me and it certainly involves more than just doing water changes. Everyone’s tank is different. They are all ecosystems in a glass box. What work works for one person, may not work for the other.

For me, being more open minded was the key. That seems to be harder for some, than others.

 

[jda]

I have also been doing this since you had to order nice SW equipment out of the back of a freshwater magazine. I have yet to see a really kick butt no-water-change tank that is many years old that did not spend more time and money than just changing water. You see lots of nice ones from hobbyists who have been doing it for a year, or maybe two, but beyond this, you need a solid, reliable routine to export and import things (such as DSR, for example).

I guess that my point is that the first question that anybody should ask when people are totally happy without changing water is "how long have you been doing it?" If it is less then a few years, then who cares... lots of people can do this and do it well. If it is more, then pay attention... chances are that they have worked very hard and spend a lot of money to not change water. You will also see some "I don't change water" people who have still changed plenty over a longer time that has reset their clock. In the end, show me more than one or two tanks that ACTUALLY have not changed any water for 2-3 years that are thriving like tanks that do and I will be shocked... they are just so hard to find... not impossible, but very hard to find. If you look around, you will find a bucket full of people who once were sold that water changes do not matter and as their tanks got older, they started to do them and things got better - there are more of these people than those who have 4-5 year old tanks with no water changes (or no system like DSR). Most of the super strong takes that water changes are not necessary are from people who are just not far enough long with them to know what is coming, IMO.

I challenge anybody who has not changed water in a year, or more, to change some. You will see some things perk up. Some of this depends on what is kept too... some thing are obviously less sensitive than others.

For me, I am too cheap and lazy not to change water. I can change 300+ gallons of water for what some spend on ICP test. I figured out a few decades ago how to doctor my salt mix to make it perfect for my tank - takes an extra 30 seconds to add acid and dowflake.

 

[rtparty]

Water changes don't do 99% of what people claim. This is just a fact. Water changes will NOT replace trace elements. Most salts contain very little of the trace elements, if any.

Reef Moonshiners is far cheaper than changing water for me. Even using IO salt I would be $50-60 a month in water changes in a state that is being decimated by a drought. Not very smart IMO to push water changes in the drought states. Water rations are a very real threat in the near future for some of us. So 15 months ago I started my "no scheduled water change" routine by following the Reef Moonshiners method. I have never had a better tank in 17 years and that includes the dozen or more tanks where I followed a strict weekly water change schedule.

Are water changes needed at some point? Absolutely. There are many things we can't test for and water changes can help with these items.

To the OP, keep doing what you're doing! You found what works for you and your tank. I would argue the reason you are seeing better success is because you are more in tune with your system. Paying attention more carefully and your corals are showing the rewards. I would also argue this is why I have seen more success using the RM method...I am paying more attention to my tank (although science actually follows and plays out here.)

 

[G Santana]

You obviously learned and relearned your lessons well.
Hats off!!!

 

[Timfish]

. . . Seems to me that you're still hooked on that old school outlook that anything other than doing water changes is bad husbandry. That thinking is outdated.

No. What I'm hooked on is current research, it just so happens water changes are the best way to remove the labile DOCor more specifically the Dissolved Combined Neutral Surgars (DCNS aka carbon dosing) is with water changes since it's not removed with skimmers or GAC. It doesn't matter where you look, our own phiysical and mental health or sustanable farming or keeping corals healthy, healthy microbiomes are essential. Anything that skews microbiomes or promotes pathogenic shifts is bad husbandry. Keeping a coral a few years and thinking htat's success is about the same keeping a kitten or puppy a few months. We need to be looking at the best way to keep our corals and systems for their normal life expectancy. Here's some of the research I'm hooked on:

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Excess labile carbon (carbon dosing) promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have lots more if you're interested.

 

[rtparty]

"Normal life expectancy"

Wow. So I need to figure out how to pass my corals along for the next 2-3000 years before I have "good husbandry." Makes sense

 

[mindme]

No. What I'm hooked on is current research, it just so happens water changes are the best way to remove the labile DOCor more specifically the Dissolved Combined Neutral Surgars (DCNS aka carbon dosing) is with water changes since it's not removed with skimmers or GAC. It doesn't matter where you look, our own phiysical and mental health or sustanable farming or keeping corals healthy, healthy microbiomes are essential. Anything that skews microbiomes or promotes pathogenic shifts is bad husbandry. Keeping a coral a few years and thinking htat's success is about the same keeping a kitten or puppy a few months. We need to be looking at the best way to keep our corals and systems for their normal life expectancy. Here's some of the research I'm hooked on:

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Excess labile carbon (carbon dosing) promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have lots more if you're interested.

I never see these DOC being mentioned in either peoples problems or solutions to peoples problems.

And just linking a bunch of random articles proves nothing. Is there a specific point you wanted to make with this "research"? Because I just browsed over it, and it seems to mostly be suggesting that low nutrient levels found in the ocean leads to faster bleaching. Which I think in the reef community we know this to be true when you have low nutrients, but high lighting. Yet for some reason you seem to be blaming the carbon source that lowers them?

I mean I'm just guessing because you didn't really make a point, just unloaded a bunch of links.

 

[Timfish]

"Normal life expectancy"

Wow. So I need to figure out how to pass my corals along for the next 2-3000 years before I have "good husbandry." Makes sense

Why shouldn't we? But to correct your assumption on life expectancies, it is true a coral genotype may have a life expectancy of several thousand years. Colony life expectancy is much shorter. And polyp life expectancy shorter still. The fungia polyps I have reproducing in my systems for example have a life expectancy of about 40 years.