I was Wrong

[Timfish]

I never see these DOC being mentioned in either peoples problems or solutions to peoples problems.

And just linking a bunch of random articles proves nothing. Is there a specific point you wanted to make with this "research"? Because I just browsed over it, and it seems to mostly be suggesting that low nutrient levels found in the ocean leads to faster bleaching. Which I think in the reef community we know this to be true when you have low nutrients, but high lighting. Yet for some reason you seem to be blaming the carbon source that lowers them?

I mean I'm just guessing because you didn't really make a point, just unloaded a bunch of links.

Well, I was correcting your assumption I was hooked on "old school ways" when in reality I'm constantly reviewing research to better understand what's happening in my systems. And apparently you missed the point it is excess labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, that causes coral disease and death. You're right, we don't see people mentioning DOC when they have problems, but for a long time smoking was never mentioned as a cause of lung until research showed the link. We now have lots of research showing labile DOC casues significant problems with corals and I do not see the wisdom of adding labile DOC. And to reiterate, the forms of labile DOC that causes the most harm, Dissolved Combined neutral Sugars is not removed by skimmers and is not removed by GAC, water changes are the best way to remove it.

 

[Koh23]

One-two months is meaningless, but, one-two-three year is enough time to test a theory.....

So, no wc for 2 years can be in domain of statistical error, but also can be considered sucess in some way...

 

[ReefGeezer]

I think many tanks may have the microbial capacity to reduce certain DOC. Some is less likely to be removed that way but might be reduced by higher organisms living in the reef. I suppose systems that operate effectively like that would not benefit from water changes as much. My tank is not there yet. I can see the benefit with my own eyes. Call me old school if you wish, but I think we are back to that cat skinning thing again.

 

[mindme]

Well, I was correcting your assumption I was hooked on "old school ways" when in reality I'm constantly reviewing research to better understand what's happening in my systems. And apparently you missed the point it is excess labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, that causes coral disease and death. You're right, we don't see people mentioning DOC when they have problems, but for a long time smoking was never mentioned as a cause of lung until research showed the link. We now have lots of research showing labile DOC casues significant problems with corals and I do not see the wisdom of adding labile DOC. And to reiterate, the forms of labile DOC that causes the most harm, Dissolved Combined neutral Sugars is not removed by skimmers and is not removed by GAC, water changes are the best way to remove it.

Can you point out where in the links you posted that it said this? Because when I glanced over the articles you posted it was merely talking about low nutrients being tied to bleaching, and the carbon sources were merely a source that kept the nutrients low. I admit I didn't have time to read over every single link you posted(which btw is a logical fallacy known as Gish Gallop), so if you can point me to the specific information that asserts your information that would be great.

But as far as low nutrients, this is something we know, corals fade without the nutrients in the water, and if your lights are too powerful at the same time, the corals will die/suffer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I never see these DOC being mentioned in either peoples problems or solutions to peoples problems.

In case you've missed them, I can show some:

I have recommended in hundreds of threads that DOC (organics) can contribute to cyanobacteria and reducing it is a useful thing to try. Certainly others have said similar things over and over.

What other problems might DOC impact?

Yellowing of water, obviously.

Driving of dinoflagellates (suggested by others)

Dinoflagellates caused by an abundance of untestable organic nutrients in our tanks.

So what types of foods do we believe corals consume in our tanks? I think we can agree that it small particles of dissolved organic matter mostly in the form of fish waste. In fact the coral’s Zooxanthellae are Dinoflagellates with the ability to live inside corals. So what happens when we...

www.reef2reef.com

" Dinoflagellates love this organic pollution and bloom because we have overloaded our systems."


Coral death (suggested by others):

what causes fish / corals to die?

Hi everyone I have been looking after my fish and coral for about 18 months now. I have a 180 gallon 6 foot aquarium with mostly lps and softies, I tried some sps but only the montipora has been growing and doing well. After this time I would imagine my tank should be stable enough that...

www.reef2reef.com

"Age, stress, introduced pathogens, pathogens and/or metabolic issues the animal already had when acquired, improper diet, for corals add excess labile DOC and nutrient imbalances"

 

[Jeffcb]

Humm. I did a water change last November. I think I will do another soon.

 

[iMi]

I’ve have reef tanks for over 30 years. I built my own metal halide lights from parts and I designed and build my own downdraft skimmer. I’ve been doing it since coral colonies, and I mean big ones, were $20. So a long time …

I’ve had a lot of successes and my share of failures too. The one thing I knew from early on, was that stability was key to being successful.

I made an ATO that worked (most of the time) found a temp controller that was reliable and did regular water changes using a hydrometer. I tested what I could using LaMotte test kits. I was high tech. LOL

As the hobby evolved, more equipment became available, and various additives were the rage, I got lazy. I did things by eye, rather than by a schedule. I relied on additives, rather than water changes and when I lost a coral, I just replaced it. So it was $30 now, not a big deal.

So fast forward 10 years or so. Life got busy and I was out of the hobby for five years and have been back it for five. Wow, how things changed!

LED lighting, controllers, custom made sumps, roller fleece filters, DC pumps, I can go on and on. I guess the biggest negative change, was that the supply of good live rock dried up and then good dry rock, like Tonga, too and of course the cost of corals skyrocketed.

I dove right back in. Quickly went from a 60 gallon tank, to a 110 and then a 150. I started it was the best dry rock I could find, took my time and cycled it correctly and started stocking it with tiny $30 zoa frags and now $100 LPS frags. Ouch!

What didn’t change, was my lazy habits. It was even easier now, with controllers, really good additives, efficient skimmers and great lighting. I did water changes, but not regularly. I tested the water when the mood struck me and still did pretty good, but when I lost a coral, it was more like a $100 loss.

I think the light bulb finally came on when I went to a coral show and sale recently and saw that the $25 zoa frags were more like $50 now and a decent torch or hammer was $200 and up.

I finally realized that I needed to do it the “right”way. I bought myself some good Hanna test kits, learned how to use them properly, got my perimeters under control and did water changes on a set schedule.

What a difference it made! In less than 30 days, my corals opened more, everything was thriving, rather than just surviving, colors were popping and the coralline algae that had always been hit or miss, was a hit.

I know rambled a bit, but the moral to the story is, do your water changes, do them regularly and test your parameters. You will thank me for it!

I love seeing posts like this. A reefer sharing a lifetime of insight with the community. Beatiful reef.

 

[iMi]

No. What I'm hooked on is current research, it just so happens water changes are the best way to remove the labile DOCor more specifically the Dissolved Combined Neutral Surgars (DCNS aka carbon dosing) is with water changes since it's not removed with skimmers or GAC. It doesn't matter where you look, our own phiysical and mental health or sustanable farming or keeping corals healthy, healthy microbiomes are essential. Anything that skews microbiomes or promotes pathogenic shifts is bad husbandry. Keeping a coral a few years and thinking htat's success is about the same keeping a kitten or puppy a few months. We need to be looking at the best way to keep our corals and systems for their normal life expectancy. Here's some of the research I'm hooked on:

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Excess labile carbon (carbon dosing) promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have lots more if you're interested.

Interesting. The point I get out of this is that we can't test for everything and marine lifeforms are complex and as we can see with the natural reefs, fragile.

I also consider water changes to be a sort of a "reset button" that helps remove and replanish what we're not testing. I'm also lazy and absolutely hate testing the water all the time. What a chore!

 

[mindme]

Coral death (suggested by others):

what causes fish / corals to die?

Hi everyone I have been looking after my fish and coral for about 18 months now. I have a 180 gallon 6 foot aquarium with mostly lps and softies, I tried some sps but only the montipora has been growing and doing well. After this time I would imagine my tank should be stable enough that...

www.reef2reef.com

"Age, stress, introduced pathogens, pathogens and/or metabolic issues the animal already had when acquired, improper diet, for corals add excess labile DOC and nutrient imbalances"

The others are easily solvable, but this one is interesting. How many years does it take for this to happen?

 

[mindme]

The others are easily solvable, but this one is interesting. How many years does it take for this to happen?

I noticed you just sent me to another post by the same person. I clicked on the links and once again it was a video talking about the low nutrient conditions in the ocean.

We can't go out and dose nutrients into the ocean, but we can in our aquariums, if that is a problem to start with.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Interesting. The point I get out of this is that we can't test for everything and marine lifeforms are complex and as we can see with the natural reefs, fragile.

I also consider water changes to be a sort of a "reset button" that helps remove and replanish what we're not testing. I'm also lazy and absolutely hate testing the water all the time. What a chore!

Depending on the quantity changed, IMO, water changes can be a reset or simply a method to keep the everything from trending too far from the original condition. I'm of the opinion that balanced food webs and nutrient pathways can minimize or even eliminate the need for water changes to reduce DOC's whether labile or refractory... again my overly simplified view of life in a reef tank. However, some build-up of ions and loss of trace elements included in the original salt mix certainly occurs over time. I believe there is some value to water changes in this arena i.e. diluting the build up of ions and the replacement of some trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The others are easily solvable, but this one is interesting. How many years does it take for this to happen?

I do not know. I do not even know that it does happen in a reef tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I noticed you just sent me to another post by the same person. I clicked on the links and once again it was a video talking about the low nutrient conditions in the ocean.

We can't go out and dose nutrients into the ocean, but we can in our aquariums, if that is a problem to start with.

It is not hard to find scientific articles that indicate that elevated DOC is a potential problem for corals. How and when this might happen in a reef tank is a different question,.

Effects of High Dissolved Inorganic and Organic Carbon Availability on the Physiology of the Hard Coral Acropora millepora from the Great Barrier Reef

Coral reefs are facing major global and local threats due to climate change-induced increases in dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) and because of land-derived increases in organic and inorganic nutrients. Recent research revealed that high availability of labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC)...

journals.plos.org

" High DOC availability reduced net and gross photosynthesis by 51% and 39%, respectively, but did not affect respiration. DOC addition did not influence calcification, but significantly increased growth by 42%."

 

[mindme]

It is not hard to find scientific articles that indicate that elevated DOC is a potential problem for corals. How and when this might happen in a reef tank is a different question,.

Effects of High Dissolved Inorganic and Organic Carbon Availability on the Physiology of the Hard Coral Acropora millepora from the Great Barrier Reef

Coral reefs are facing major global and local threats due to climate change-induced increases in dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) and because of land-derived increases in organic and inorganic nutrients. Recent research revealed that high availability of labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC)...

journals.plos.org

" High DOC availability reduced net and gross photosynthesis by 51% and 39%, respectively, but did not affect respiration. DOC addition did not influence calcification, but significantly increased growth by 42%."

That's kind of my question though. I'm someone who doesn't do water changes, and instead maintain the elements of the water manually through various methods.

Thus far I have not seen negative effects from doing this. I have done a series of water changes once a few months ago, about 1.5 years into the tank due to an error on my alk reading causing issues I falsely attributed to aluminum. But otherwise, I don't do regularly scheduled water changes.

He seemed to suggest I would be killing my corals this way, so I'm just looking for a time table on it, signs of it, etc. Because thus far I am not seeing the negative side effects. And there are people who have gone much longer without and if they have negative side effects, they don't say it.

I admit I have only had the time to glance over the information, but it seemed to be talking about a lack of nutrients and carbon. Since the ocean is otherwise somewhat stable, it's triggered by higher water temperatures causing bleaching. Like if we went into our tanks with 0 nutrients and just kept dosing carbon. Which I can see causing issues.

I certainly don't want a 0 nutrient system, I know that much. If it becomes an issue, I would change things up and eventually dose if needed.

 

[Cell]

I have found there is definitely a happy balance between doing too much and doing too little. Both can have negative effects on your ecosystem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I admit I have only had the time to glance over the information, but it seemed to be talking about a lack of nutrients and carbon. Since the ocean is otherwise somewhat stable, it's triggered by higher water temperatures causing bleaching. Like if we went into our tanks with 0 nutrients and just kept dosing carbon. Which I can see causing issues.

The article I posted is purely about what happens when DOC is artificially elevated.

 

[Timfish]

Can you point out where in the links you posted that it said this? Because when I glanced over the articles you posted it was merely talking about low nutrients being tied to bleaching, and the carbon sources were merely a source that kept the nutrients low. I admit I didn't have time to read over every single link you posted(which btw is a logical fallacy known as Gish Gallop), so if you can point me to the specific information that asserts your information that would be great.

But as far as low nutrients, this is something we know, corals fade without the nutrients in the water, and if your lights are too powerful at the same time, the corals will die/suffer.

I suggest you look a little closer at the refferences I posted. None are talking about lowered nutrients. The first paper looked at increased labial DOC and increased phosphate, ammonia and nitrate and increased labile DOC caused a significantly higher mortality. The second paper looked at the effects of sugar on a corals microbiome and it casued an increase in nitrogen fixation in the holobiont and increased N ratios and then bleaching. The third, fourth and fifth papers looked at DOC and microbes, nutrients were only mentioned in passing as increasing (eutrophicacion).

 

[jda]

Can I make one? Can you find a few tanks that has not done a water change in 3+ years - like none - that most people would look at and drool over? Before you link it, see if this was not a relic type of tank or post and they are now doing water changes again. Even if you can find a few, and you might be able to, ask yourself if these are the rule or the exception, since there will not be a lot of them. I would use this as an indication of what is really possible rather than a bunch of selected facts or observations from a few articles here and there - anybody can cherry pick these, but the actual successes and failures are probably more telling.

Again, I am not saying that none of this is impossible, only that what most people think is happening is not. Even no water change people do water changes. The posters on this board that used to post a lot about it are typically doing them now as time went on in their tanks. When you look at all of the details either people do not make it too long with this, or they work REALLY hard and spend a lot of money not to, and usually do some anyway.

I think that it is more genuine if people just say that they don't do regular water changes, but are open to it if things look amiss. This more accurately describes most actual folks that others think are no water change people. You just rarely see the staunch stubbornness to change water or strict regiment not to as much as people like to post about it.

 

[mindme]

Can I make one? Can you find a few tanks that has not done a water change in 3+ years - like none - that most people would look at and drool over? Before you link it, see if this was not a relic type of tank or post and they are now doing water changes again. Even if you can find a few, and you might be able to, ask yourself if these are the rule or the exception, since there will not be a lot of them. I would use this as an indication of what is really possible rather than a bunch of selected facts or observations from a few articles here and there - anybody can cherry pick these, but the actual successes and failures are probably more telling.

Again, I am not saying that none of this is impossible, only that what most people think is happening is not. Even no water change people do water changes. The posters on this board that used to post a lot about it are typically doing them now as time went on in their tanks. When you look at all of the details either people do not make it too long with this, or they work REALLY hard and spend a lot of money not to, and usually do some anyway.

I think that it is more genuine if people just say that they don't do regular water changes, but are open to it if things look amiss. This more accurately describes most actual folks that others think are no water change people. You just rarely see the staunch stubbornness to change water or strict regiment not to as much as people like to post about it.

I think it's pretty much implied that people would do a water change if needed. The reasons why it's needed have been addressed through other methods.

Or so I thought, and still do for the moment.

He claimed that if I didn't do water changes, DOC would build up. When I asked for information about it, all I got was ocean stuff. Which I really don't see what it has to do with my tank as I won't be running high temps, and I can otherwise maintain the elements in my water. I'm interested in knowing what build ups happen, how long until it becomes a problem, and things like that. Something that can be used.

Although I doubt I need biweekly water changes to address it, I wouldn't be opposed to the occasional water change to address the issue - if I can find out what the actual issue is.

As for tanks without water changes, I guess when you say "work really hard and spend a lot of money not to" you are referring to the reef moonshiners method? Because that is an entire community of people who don't seem to do water changes(I'm sure some do, but seems like most do not). I just switched to this method about 3 months ago and so far I'm liking it. I was previously using tropic marine elements without water changes.

There is nothing hard about it I'll say right off. It's extremely easy and fast to dose every day. I've even been thinking about taking my calcium and alk off the dosing pump, but the main reason I haven't is because I like that it adds in the night to help PH. I basically dose while I'm waiting for my frozen food to thaw.

Expense however I'm not sure on, still a bit early. I spent like $500 in 3 months on elements. Some of them last a long time like Iron, but others like Fluoride go down faster than I'd like, especially for the price. I am looking for alternative sources for that element. The other expense are the ATI tests, I've been doing them monthly so far. But I don't plan on doing my next test for 2 months. So a decent amount of money involved, but as the months go by, it gets cheaper by the month. Right now 3 months in I am spending $650 / 3, so $210ish per month. However, I won't have to buy more elements for many months, some of them I won't need to buy for years. So right now it's a bit difficult for me to put a price on it. I will say Floride as I mentioned above is probably around $15 a month. And then another element is about $7 a month. But most of them are less than $1 a month. I can probably do the math and get a real price based on how much my monthly doses are, I think I will just to see. For now my estimate is around $60 a month if I do ICP tests every 3 months, $90ish if I did ICP every month like I have so far.

However, water changes are not free. If we assume cheap IO, and lets say $50 for 200 gallon, which would really work out to about 160 real gallons. So for me, doing 20% water changes biweekly, that's 40g and a cost of $25 per month in salt. And I'm not really sure on water bill, but 4 to 5 gallons of waste water is produced for every 1 gallon of RODI water. So 80 gallons X 4.5 = 360 gallons of water per month. I think the cost here is not that much, probably around $4 a month. $29 a month so far.

Of course, RODI filters aren't free. I live in Florida and I have to replace mine every 5-6 months and that's just for top off water. Currently that's about 30 gallons a month for top off, now I'm going to need 80 gallons. So just for the water change part, I'm looking at needing to replace the filters every 3 months. So $70 / 3 adds $23 a month to the cost, up to $52 a month.

And then there is the sad reality that even after you do these water changes, the salt isn't going to have all the trace elements you need. So you are still going to need to dose some elements from something to get the same results.

In the end, my theory and belief is that if the method is more expensive, it's not by a whole lot. I think I'll try to figure up the actual costs, I just got ICP results back this morning and I'm about to do my monthly corrections etc. I'll use those numbers and get the costs.

 

[jda]

Moonshiners could be good. I will need a few more years to know.. anything can look good for a few months or a year or two. DSR is the gold-standard, to me. It has been around long enough with smart enough people doing it to know that it is OK. Even they will tell you that there are just some things/corals that don't adapt well and do seem to still benefit from some water changes. Still, many DSR folks will do one larger WC every year, or so, and see benefits.

IO is $32 a box for 176 gallon - we order it on PetCo or Chewy sale. A bag is $8 for 44 gallons. Sure, filters, water, etc. are all not free... not with any method. My main point about cost is that people will send out an ICP for $50 (? I don't even know the cost anymore) and not really learn much when they could have reset a bunch of things with some water changes. The testing does not even cover the additives, in-house kits, etc.

When I was researching DSR in depth, I figured out that I don't want to be a tester. Just my personality. I enjoy testing only alk about once a week. Some people love to test and all of that, which is great and I support anything that keep hands on the tank. Also, once I learned how inaccurate ICP can be, especially for this hobby, I really don't want to use one.

As long as people understand that you just cannot do nothing and be OK, then probably most else is doable.