Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[Paul B]

Me and Humblefish always disagree but I still love him. If we all agreed this would be like stamp collecting, now that's a rush. "hey my 1932 Tahitian 2 cent stamp is starting to turn yellow". OMG, what could I do. :eek:
We are all here for the same purpose, I like the gardening and fashion threads. But in a Man way. :)

 

[Humblefish]

Me and Humblefish always disagree but I still love him. If we all agreed this would be like stamp collecting, now that's a rush. "hey my 1932 Tahitian 2 cent stamp is starting to turn yellow". OMG, what could I do. :eek:
We are all here for the same purpose, I like the gardening and fashion threads. But in a Man way. :)

We have a weird sort of bromance, Paul. ;)

 

[dankreef]

Some good reading for sure. I'm with humble though :) I enjoyed reading paul's arguments. I disagree on purposly introducing parasites into your tank and a tank not being "healthy" for 2-5 years. I have fish in a bran new tank that I feed LRS and pellets to, which are brighter and better looking that many other fish I have seen personally. God bless humble for putting the TTM out which I believe is the only true way to eradicate ich. If you cant go down to petco and buy a 10 gallon tank, a heater and air stone you shouldn't be in this hobby. I get fish, TTM & parazi for first two transfers, thirds clean of parazi. Then observe for another week. I've had some fish for years, introducing parasites on purpose for the fact of "boosting" immune system is insane in the membrane !

 

[Paul B]

Dankreef, are those fish spawning? Most fish won't spawn in a newer tank. Clownfish may but they will spawn in a paper cup after being fed cornflakes and skim milk. :eek:
I don't purposely add parasites, I just don't purposely try to remove them. :D
I also have a 10 gallon tank, heater and airstone, but I use that for my Manta Rays.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[dankreef]

My clowns do :cool:. Do they all spawn even without being in pairs? So your saying if all your fish in your tank arnt laying eggs consistanly they are not healthy ?

 

[Humblefish]

God bless humble for putting the TTM out which I believe is the only true way to eradicate ich.

I appreciate the kind words; however I didn't "invent" TTM (just in case someone were to take it that way.) I'm just a huge proponent of the technique. Maybe someday I'll even get @Paul B to do it. :D

 

[dankreef]

Everyone in town has ich in their tanks and they deal with it. I used to be included in that. But if your putting gem tangs in your tank I feel a lot better knowing everyone's clean . Good luck to you guys happy Reefing

 

[Paul B]

My clowns do :cool:. Do they all spawn even without being in pairs? So your saying if all your fish in your tank arnt laying eggs consistanly they are not healthy ?

Yes I am, if they are "paired" fish and if they are the type of fish that will lay eggs in a tank. I am not talking about tangs, butterflies or other egg scatters as they would need much more room to spawn in a tank. But if you have paired gobies, mandarins,watchmans, pipefish, ruby red dragonettes, seahorses, bangai or any cardinals, then they should be spawning constantly as the "normal" state of those fish is pregnant. All healthy (female) fish are always pregnant. It's what they do. :rolleyes:
If your paired fish are not spawning, you would still need to quarantine as their immune system would not be as healthy as it should be and the fish would be susceptible to diseases.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

How many times do you go to a doctor and he/she makes a diagnosis based solely upon the symptoms you list, and fails to do a biopsy or any blood work?

It is called a history and physical (exam) which every doctor does before prescribing as required by their profession and sometimes law...but I digress.

In just knew you could diagnose my mental condition for me without even a picture...well done Doc. ;)

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Now here is turn in the discussion. It is still about Ich and related disease.

Since turning to this online forum I have looked at many new tank builds and I have noticed a trend I would like to comment on and explore the implications.

Way back when Paul B's was already 15 years old and I was just starting my working life, a man named George Smit started writing articles in Freshwater and Marine Aquarium Magazine (yep all we had was paper then). Anyway, he introduced many in America to the Dutch Style of reef keeping. He used dolomite in layered trays and trickled the water through to a sump and return pump. He then moved to DLS (double layered spiral) which was a roll of IncaMat and Polyester batting. Now it had a sweet rotating spray bar that hypnotized most of America into buying his new filter system. I was one victim and even became one of his first distributors for MiniReef USA and then Reef Lake Systems. It was not long until I was bitten by the bug so hard I quite my job as manager of a Dental Laboratory and set out to make my fortune in Saltwater Aquariums. I guess we all know how that ended since I have no picture on my profile and I would prefer to remain anonymous...except for using my real name.

Anyway here is one thing he stressed in his articles that should cause us to consider the "old ways" once again. He strongly recommended not adding fish to the system until 6 months to a year after the live rock and invertebrates we settled in. The Dutch style reef also was more of a mixed reef with LPS, Gorgonians, Anemones, Sponges, Shrimp, Crabs and Macro Algae and later a few invertebrate friendly fish. Not to many SPS were available in the trade then and in Germany and Europe collection had already been banned. If you do not catch the significance of this let's go back to the recommendation by Humblefish to let a tank set fallow for 72 days to eliminate Ich in the display system. So again the maturation of the aquarium took place without any fish in place at all for 6 months or longer. As a result we had very little disease problems in a mature reef tank (with or without ozone or U.V.).

What I have noticed in the new methods is to use fake rock or dry rock, kill everything with an acid bath, strip the phosphate out and start with a sterile system, attempt to add back some bacteria in a bottle, add some pods, all without the natural flora and fauna that made our tanks almost bomb proof by comparison. Then to add insult to injury often the first animals in the tank are...you guessed it fish! Follow my astounded thought here. We know that certain parasites establish in the tank and can last 72 days right? So is this not a bad idea to place the fish in first before the rest of the aquarium is settled? One of the arguments made by George Smit, Helmut Debelius and others was that Sponges and other invertebrates actually consumed some of the parasites. Of course the other claim was that Macro Algae provided some antibiotic quality to the aquarium. The actual truth may be that the absence of fish for over 72 days made a much more stable system when the fish finally arrived. This may very well be just casting about for answers as to why this method of aquarium establishment seemed to work so well for so many at the time. But I do have to say I was reminded of these steps today as I pondered why so many people on this forum have fish disease problems. I think we should rethink the establishment protocol. We should see if establishing the invertebrate and live rock population (I do mean at least some real live rock) first will change our current success rate. Perhaps the maturation Paul attributes to his long term success will show dividends with more systems.

What do you think?

 

[Paul B]

When I got my first tank Ed Sullivan didn't even introduce Elvis yet. I remember that show well. I was breeding fancy guppies then. I think they were fifteen cents. :D (I remember George Smit and his writings well)
I also think my tank doesn't have any problems and my fish never get sick due to the natural approach. I feed natural foods with their "associated bacteria". Much commercial food is irradiated to kill these things. To me, gut bacteria is the most important thing we never talk about, (but the fish do). I eliminate algae by growing it in a scrubber. My tank is full of sponges that also filter water (and maybe pee in it) Algae, IMO should be encouraged to grow as it does in the sea as a therapeutic substance and not a harbinger of doom. I also think we should encourage the immune system of our fish to take care of their health rather than rely on Obamacare, drugs or antibiotics. Completely eliminating parasites is un natural in the sea and in a tank. Healthy fish on the proper food have no problem with parasites. Unlike all these forums, to fish, parasites are a no issue thing. If we humans wanted to eliminate all our parasites we would have to live in a bubble because we are covered in them. Way more than fish are. Google it.
We should IMO, allow detritus or mulm to build up (slightly) in order to give bacteria and pods) a more natural place to grow and play. If my fish don't get sick, no one's fish should get sick and if they do, it is our fault. Not the fish, the store or Lady GaGa.

Last year I took this off one of the outer Hawaiian Islands. In the middle of the pacific Ocean, Guess what it is?
Many, OK, most people will disagree with me and my methods. But virtually no one can tell me why my fish, and other fish in other tanks don't get sick and die of old age without quarantining. Wouldn't it be nice if our fish never got sick? It is not that hard to do but we, many times just don't want to make a slight effort and would rather spend so much time quarantine and treating diseases when IMO it is unnecessary and potentially harmful.
I am now going to use the "N" word. "Noobs", Noobs should not read this because they will most likely fail. It is not just quarantine or not quarantining. There is much more to it than that and even Humble fish agrees with that. (That is the only thing we agree on but his methods are much more suited for a Noob). (He is gnashing his teeth now as I can hear it). So you people listen to him. After you have been at this for a few years, get your fish healthy and spawning, feed them correctly. Pellets and flakes are not correct. And learn all you can about their immune system rather than listen to rumors that were started in the 60s by scientists that couldn't even keep plastic fish.
Don't even listen to me, listen to your fish, they know how to stay healthy. I don't like these threads because of all the hate mail I will get. That comes from all the people who started their tanks last Tuesday and they crashed. I once wrote that I sometimes use Clorox bleach to purify NSW if it had red tide in it. A guy wrote me to tell me "I" killed his fish because he put a cup of Clorox in his tank "Full of fish". I bet those fish died but had a nice clean scent.

 

[Paul B]

Where did everybody go? I was just getting warmed up. :D

 

[Humblefish]

Where did everybody go? I was just getting warmed up. :D

Happy Mother's Day, Paul. ;)

 

[alin2]

Where did everybody go? I was just getting warmed up. :D

I'll bite. ;)

First, I bow down before your expertise and vast experience. I cannot compete with your longevity in this hobby. That said, this is my 2nd tank, and I have keep reef tanks for over 9 years. Just a twinkle in your eye, but not a complete noob.

Second, full disclosure, I am a physician with a background in molecular biology. I'm not an immunologist, and frankly, even if I was, I'm not sure how mammalian immunology would apply to piscine immunology.

Third, I generally agree with your approach of replicating the natural environment as mush as possible. It can only be helpful in general. But, I do have some issues of correlation and causation in your thesis. We don't know what in your tank is conferring better immunity to parasites. Perhaps it's the "mulm," algae, gut flora, etc in your tank. Or, it's something completely unrecognized. But, because your tank has these "things" doesn't prove causation of better immunity. You would need to experiment with controls to sort this out. In addition, there's little chance (as much as we try) that our little glass boxes can even come close to duplicating the eco-system, let alone the microscopic biome of a tropical coral reef. That's why I'm not sure your very successful method is conferable to others. Other hobbyists would have to 100% duplicate your tank environment perhaps to achieve your results. In addition, any attempts at duplicating your process may very well miss a critical chemical, biological, or ecological factor that is causative in better fish immunity to parasites that is completely unrecognized.

This said, I agree that in general, a "natural" biologic, ecological approach is preferred. But, I think we're kidding ourselves if we think we are getting close at all to the natural reef environment where parasites like Ich or Velvet don't infest fish.

Or, maybe you should package some "mulm" from your tank and call it "miracle immunity mulm" Worked for Eco-systems...Lol :p;):)

 

[Paul B]

First off, happy Mother's day to you to Humble fish. :D

Secondly. Alin2. Thank you for replying and you are 100% correct. I hate when I agree with someone but you are right. I have no idea why my fish never get sick. Having said that. I "think" it is because of the food I feed with their associated live bacteria. I could be very wrong. It could be rap music (Which is not allowed in my house) Or my water changes (which I do very few) Or my dosing schedule, (which I don't do) Or luck, which most people tell me it is. :cool:
So I am 100% positive, that I have no idea why my fish stay healthy. I think it is my good looks. :eek: Either way, have a great day and a better one tomorrow. :)

Alin here is where I discuss this and have links where I came to this conclusion. You as a doctor may find this interesting.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

 

[melypr1985]

First off, happy Mother's day to you to Humble fish. :D

Secondly. Alin2. Thank you for replying and you are 100% correct. I hate when I agree with someone but you are right. I have no idea why my fish never get sick. Having said that. I "think" it is because of the food I feed with their associated live bacteria. I could be very wrong. It could be rap music (Which is not allowed in my house) Or my water changes (which I do very few) Or my dosing schedule, (which I don't do) Or luck, which most people tell me it is. :cool:
So I am 100% positive, that I have no idea why my fish stay healthy. I think it is my good looks. :eek: Either way, have a great day and a better one tomorrow. :)

Alin here is where I discuss this and have links where I came to this conclusion. You as a doctor may find this interesting.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

My working theory is that you have super models soaking in the tank once a month. Or maybe they just have to be in the same room to be effective. hmmm :confused:

 

[mcarroll]

I'm not sure how mammalian immunology would apply to piscine immunology.

I think the answer to this might surprise you quite a bit.

(definitely catch the thread Paul linked)

 

[Humblefish]

My working theory is that you have super models soaking in the tank once a month. Or maybe they just have to be in the same room to be effective. hmmm :confused:

I think someday we're gonna learn Paul has supermodels working on his tank while he just sits back and watches. They deserve all the credit. ;)

 

[Paul B]

Actually when I go away and there is a Supermodel who watches my tank, it does look a lot better. I know the fish like her better than they like me. :p
I was in the Caribbean last week and I heard all the fish, and some of the hermit crabs were doing the Macarana. :eek:

 

[germs101]

Well...I have moved from ich prevention to ich management despite all best efforts. :(:mad:

I QTed all my fish for at least 30 days with Prazipro and Cupramine, checking the copper level with a Salifert test kit on a regular basis (every 2-3rd day). My tank was doing well with 6 sunset anthias, 3 threadfin anthias, a white bar anthia, a male/female pair of Watanabei angels, and a Helfrichi firefish/ All fish were QTed and this fish population were slowly added over 6 months.

I have a dedicated fish QT system along with a coral QT system in my fish room.

So, to my dismay, my helfrichi firefish came down with ich. I tried to net her since her bolt hole was right in front but that proved impossible. I ordered the Aqua-medic fish trap (which is very clever), but on the next day it arrived, I found her dead. She was my favorite...All the other fish have looked healthy and thus far visible ich free.

Who knows where something went wrong? My display tank has a properly sized UV sterilizer that is on 100% of the time. I QTed everything that went into the tank with the exception of some trochus snails. Perhaps there was encysted ich on the snail. Or, perhaps, 1 day my Cu level dropped? It's impossible to know.

All I know is that despite time, effort, and resources to try to keep ich from the tank, I am now unhappily in the ich management camp. My fish QT is a 20 gallon tank that would be too small for all 12 other fish for treatment for 76 days (letting the display go fallow). I could go get a 55 gallon hospital tank, but my wife would literally kill me if I put another tank downstairs.

This hobby is so frustrating! Hopefully, my other fish will remain disease managed and live healthy lives. I guess this also kills my plans for tangs and I will only add further ich resistant fish I think.

Just venting...

I've been there and have been so frustrated...It's been 7 months since I lost every fish. I have 3 clownfish and want to add more, but the thought of going through it all again just freaks me out.