Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[mcarroll]

[...weekly LFS-hatred-quota-exceeded...]Seriously though, you can't take the advice of someone wanting to sell you something.[...]

Nobody's repealing the law of caveat emptor, just addressing the "super-ignorant consumer" scenario you created.

If you are so-o-o new that you literally can't tell a healthy fish when you see one:

• You need to ask for help at the LFS when selecting your fish. There are no two ways about it.
• Hopefully you have the brains to detect between a salesdroid and a human employee. (I do...I think most do.)
• And you better be watching that fish store over some time to see how they do with fish!
• And you better be reading books too -- not just depending on some online service (ahem!) for additional advice! Get cozy with scholar.google.com while you're at it!

Ordering online from an anonymous schmo is not going to be a winning answer at the level of green you're describing.

You'd be likely to get fish that are too big for your tank, too cheap for your other fish, too expensive for your other fish, too mean to your other fish, eat your other fish, and everything else. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Paul B]

I agree but yet the vast majority of fish purchased in this hobby do not make it to old age. I would venture to guess its at least 80%. Again, that's a guess.

So clearly our practices are lacking. QUOTE]

Sadly this is true. But IMO that is "almost" always our fault, not the fish and not the store. If a fish lives a week or two, it should live long enough to set Social Security. I personally don't quarantine and you know why, but even if you do, it is our responsibility to know how to care for a fish before we buy it.

 

[4FordFamily]

An estimated 70-90% of collected fish don't survive long enough to make it to a LFS.

That is a horrific statistic. Makes me feel even more obligated to properly care for my little scaly critters"

 

[4FordFamily]

Paul, good point but no one can read it because you accidentally entered your reply in to my quote, silly!

 

[Paul B]

I wanted to be an Enigma

 

[mcarroll]

That is a horrific statistic. Makes me feel even more obligated to properly care for my little scaly critters"

That's the statistic that our practices need to be based on.

(This is why I believe in the Tang Police and all the other nutty things that get virtually shouted at in the fish threads. )

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but you always have the option of just passively observing in QT.

Yes thanks. But theres a LOT of research on prophylactic treatment and its benifits and I'm with you there.

I don't trust most LFS owners/employees any further than I can throw them. Seriously though, you can't take the advice of someone wanting to sell you something.

Some of my fave LFS are actually good folks who dont know the mistakes their making. They're humans. Good folks but clearly confused buy the information available.

You'd be likely to get fish that are too big for your tank, too cheap for your other fish, too expensive for your other fish, too mean to your other fish, eat your other fish, and everything else. Just doesn't make sense.

Ya cant fix stupid. (ask my wife)

I wanted to be an Enigma

You already are.
Locally you under gravel gets a lot of flack. I explain how and why it works, there's awkward silence, and then they talk about football.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

That is a horrific statistic. Makes me feel even more obligated to properly care for my little scaly critters"

Yea, almost worse than the dumptser behind costco after seafood day.

 

[Paul B]

Saltyfilmfolks, don't explain my reverse undergravel filter as most people will tell you it can't possibly work, is a nitrate factory and may cause global warming. I also don't want the word to get out because I like having the oldest tank on here.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Saltyfilmfolks, don't explain my reverse undergravel filter as most people will tell you it can't possibly work, is a nitrate factory and may cause global warming. I also don't want the word to get out because I like having the oldest tank on here.

GO Chargers!

 

[reynaldoramon]

At only 11 pages...this is one of the best threads. Love the debate. Love the information. Love the dedication.

 

[reynaldoramon]

Oops...now 12 pages.

 

[Gwitness]

If you quarantine fish, but buy new corals or rock, how do you quarantine that for parasites? Or does a coral dip kill anything on it?

 

[Humblefish]

If you quarantine fish, but buy new corals or rock, how do you quarantine that for parasites? Or does a coral dip kill anything on it?

Read here under "Coral/Invert QT" : https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

There are also pics in that thread (if you scroll down) of my 29 gal "fishless" frag tank I use to QT all corals/inverts.

 

[1stNoel]

Ich eradication vs. Ich management​

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189815-how-quarantine.html. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...is/189658-treatment-options-my-two-cents.html

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/190292-aerosol-transmission.html

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire. :wink:

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:

• Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
• Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
• No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.

A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.

My apologies if this has already been covered before, but I have an ich outbreak in my tank and am trying to act fast. I have a 55g tank that has been set-up for about 8 months, and a 300g DT that has been set-up for almost 3 months. All of my fish are in the DT along with a frag rack where ALL corals are placed. My QT has my SPS corals and other items I'm looking to frag (I have not moved them since I wanted the DT to be more mature before I put SPS in).

So now I have an ich outbreak and I'm not sure where to put the fish. If I put them in the 55g, then what do I do with all my expensive SPS corals? I have an extra 30 gallon sump I can use, but will my fish be happy in there for the next 76 days? Or if I remove the corals from the DT and treat them in there, what will it do to my live rock and when/how will I know that it's safe to put corals back in? I have 7 fish (clownfish, 3 yellow tangs, powder blue tang, swallowtail angel, and a copperband butterfly).

Please assist with your sage advice.

 

[melypr1985]

My apologies if this has already been covered before, but I have an ich outbreak in my tank and am trying to act fast. I have a 55g tank that has been set-up for about 8 months, and a 300g DT that has been set-up for almost 3 months. All of my fish are in the DT along with a frag rack where ALL corals are placed. My QT has my SPS corals and other items I'm looking to frag (I have not moved them since I wanted the DT to be more mature before I put SPS in).

So now I have an ich outbreak and I'm not sure where to put the fish. If I put them in the 55g, then what do I do with all my expensive SPS corals? I have an extra 30 gallon sump I can use, but will my fish be happy in there for the next 76 days? Or if I remove the corals from the DT and treat them in there, what will it do to my live rock and when/how will I know that it's safe to put corals back in? I have 7 fish (clownfish, 3 yellow tangs, powder blue tang, swallowtail angel, and a copperband butterfly).

Please assist with your sage advice.

How large are these fish? if they are still small you may be able to get away with the 30 gallon. I think the 55 would be better though.

 

[1stNoel]

Thanks for the response.

Most are 4" long. The CBB is the largest at 6".

Here are my concerns:
1. I really hate pulling the fish out of the DT. They look so happy in there. Other than the ich, they are not acting differently; so I don't want to stress them out more.
2. Your thread on copper treatment scares me into thinking I could make the situation worse (poisoning them).
3. I don't want to lose the 55g as a frag tank. Corals are growing excellently, and I don't want to mess that up by treating it with copper.

So would this work:
1. Take only one or two fish out of the DT and do the Tank Transfer Method (TTM) using 2 separate little tanks.
2. After the 2 week period, place them in the 55g frag tank.
3. Repeat until all fish have undergone the TTM and are in the 55g frag tank.
4. After all fish are out, keep the DT fallow for 76 days...then transfer the fish back in.
5. After all fish are out, keep the 55g frag tank fallow for 76 days.

In theory, after doing this, should I never see ich in my tank again (assuming I properly quarantine any new livestock)?

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks for the response.

Most are 4" long. The CBB is the largest at 6".

So would this work:
1. Take only one or two fish out of the DT and do the Tank Transfer Method (TTM) using 2 separate little tanks.
2. After the 2 week period, place them in the 55g frag tank.
3. Repeat until all fish have undergone the TTM and are in the 55g frag tank.
4. After all fish are out, keep the DT fallow for 76 days...then transfer the fish back in.
5. After all fish are out, keep the 55g frag tank fallow for 76 days.

In theory, after doing this, should I never see ich in my tank again (assuming I properly quarantine any new livestock)?

It's rather convoluted, but Yes I think that could work. Good problem solving!

 

[1stNoel]

It's rather convoluted, but Yes I think that could work. Good problem solving!

Thanks.

Now I have to find a thread on how to trap the fish. My 55g had no hiding places, so getting them out was easy. The 300g...not so much!

 

[omykiss001]

Thanks.

Now I have to find a thread on how to trap the fish. My 55g had no hiding places, so getting them out was easy. The 300g...not so much!

This works good. Takes some time, but all my fish eventually went in for food and were caught with least stress on them and no destruction of the aquascape or corals.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aqua-medic-fish-trap.html