Ich in the aquarium. So what?

[Brad Vaughn]

This ...

After velvet I now at and treat. It was stressful and heartbreaking.

Qt

 

[MnFish1]

This ...

After velvet I now at and treat. It was stressful and heartbreaking.

I had the opportunity to buy an expensive Gem Tang my my tank - and I loved it - but I was nervous that it would risk the rest of my fish (or vice versa) anyone that pretends that Cryptocaryon is 'no big deal'(sorry) is a fool. I only say that because they have not experienced the disaster that it can cause. I will never - ever - buy a fish from one of the online sites. Instead - I will ask my LFS to buy one and watch it for 6 weeks minimum - with appropriate quarantine.

Doing otherwise (and from what I considered to be reputable sites) literally caused disaster - and Im not willing to risk my current fish. Those - @rkpetersen - (no offense) that downplay this - just wait until it kills the fish that eats from your hand every day.

 

[Brad Vaughn]

I had the opportunity to buy an expensive Gem Tang my my tank - and I loved it - but I was nervous that it would risk the rest of my fish (or vice versa) anyone that pretends that Cryptocaryon is 'no big deal'(sorry) is a fool. I only say that because they have not experienced the disaster that it can cause. I will never - ever - buy a fish from one of the online sites. Instead - I will ask my LFS to buy one and watch it for 6 weeks minimum - with appropriate quarantine.

Doing otherwise (and from what I considered to be reputable sites) literally caused disaster - and Im not willing to risk my current fish. Those - @rkpetersen - (no offense) that downplay this - just wait until it kills the fish that eats from your hand every day.

I got really clear how responsible I am ... and wasn't being. I now do tank transfer method. I just shorten the duration to clear velvet. It's really easy to avoid these parasites once you get used to the qt procedures. I know people who manage ich and that's their business, but I've had outbreaks from getting frags from people so I now qt everything.

 

[4FordFamily]

I had the opportunity to buy an expensive Gem Tang my my tank - and I loved it - but I was nervous that it would risk the rest of my fish (or vice versa) anyone that pretends that Cryptocaryon is 'no big deal'(sorry) is a fool. I only say that because they have not experienced the disaster that it can cause. I will never - ever - buy a fish from one of the online sites. Instead - I will ask my LFS to buy one and watch it for 6 weeks minimum - with appropriate quarantine.

Doing otherwise (and from what I considered to be reputable sites) literally caused disaster - and Im not willing to risk my current fish. Those - @rkpetersen - (no offense) that downplay this - just wait until it kills the fish that eats from your hand every day.

Not to knock local LFS but of the dozen or so around here I find them no different or worse than online retailers. 99% of my fish come from online.

I assume they all have velvet and flukes and I do pretty well with it. LFS often source their fish from the same place as online retailers. For instance, Petco, live aquaria, and petsolutions all source from quality marine. These websites are simply a marketplace for fish that will never enter their facilities. LFS source from the same places, but mark them up to feed their families as well. This is why I don’t knock them at all, this is important and you should support a good LFS!

 

[Big G]

Almost all the stores that I have been to in CT & LI all run their salinity at 1.015~1.018 and a low dose of copper. Your almost forced to utilize a QT just because of the salinity difference. Somehow i just don’t think that acclimating for a .010 ppt in 60 minutes does well for stress levels on new additions let alone all the other factors already discussed.
Even fish that I’ve gotten from Live Aquaria has been 1.018 ppt lately whereas years ago, they were more towards 1.023~1.025.

Just got an order from Live Aquaria: half was shipped from their California location and was 1.015/16; the other half was from their ORA in Florida an was 1.019.

 

[MnFish1]

Not to knock local LFS but of the dozen or so around here I find them no different or worse than online retailers. 99% of my fish come from online.

I assume they all have velvet and flukes and I do pretty well with it. LFS often source their fish from the same place as online retailers. For instance, Petco, live aquaria, and petsolutions all source from quality marine. These websites are simply a marketplace for fish that will never enter their facilities. LFS source from the same places, but mark them up to feed their families as well. This is why I don’t knock them at all, this is important and you should support a good LFS!

agree with you - I Only buy (now) from one store. There are many that are horrific.. The one I buy from - has an excellent documentable procedure..

 

[MnFish1]

Just got an order from Live Aquaria: half was shipped from their California location and was 1.015/16; the other half was from their ORA in Florida an was 1.019.

So? Maybe your measuements are wrong - before 'slamming' someone - maybe it would be good for you have called (the place you ordered stuff from) and asked - why is your SG x,xxxx - or is my measurement wrong. If not - its just like some troll post - criticising a company without evidence.

 

[Big G]

So? Maybe your measuements are wrong - before 'slamming' someone - maybe it would be good for you have called (the place you ordered stuff from) and asked - why is your SG x,xxxx - or is my measurement wrong. If not - its just like some troll post - criticising a company without evidence.

Wasn't intended as a "slam" it was just some current info. Just got my new fish last Thursday. And in case you are wondering, I do recalibrate my refractometer before each use.

 

[MnFish1]

Ich in rhe aquarium. So what?

This was this post of the original poster in this thread - despite the discussion - and despite the original posters request to 'remain civil' or something like that - I want to say (as civilly as possible) this is the stupidest topic have ever read. First - Its Crytocaryon - not 'Ich'. Secondly - saying 'so what' to a problem at which millions of dollars re being 'thrown at' in the fish farming industry seems like a completely ridiculous proposition.

One can believe in the 'ich management' philosophy - but I guess after thinking about this for a bit - I think the OP is extremely uneducated - or else was t5ying to provoke a discussion which was resolved months ago.. I argued ( his side ) a couple times - but there is literally no real defense from a scientific basis - Some people get lucky - the rest ignore the deaths as a price of keeping an aquarium. (Luck being the fish they are buying have immunity/.limited immunity) - or are from a good system. I do not think there is any data that suggest 'good feeding' to 'boost the immune system' prevents death from this parasite. Note - I dont mean that oh - I saw a spot on a fin - and in 3 weeks it was gone - so I must have been feeding appropriately - or had a good flow - thats not scientific - that's anecdote.

Like I said once before - I was in this camp - until one fish changed my (and 20 other fish = 2000$) mind very quickly. The fact is that most fish from retailers do hot have Ich - so QT could be called worthless - but - the percent that do cause the problem - its like Russian roulette.... IMHO.

 

[MnFish1]

Wasn't intended as a "slam" it was just some current info. Just got my new fish last Thursday. And in case you are wondering, I do recalibrate my refractometer before each use.

but you are calling out a national supplier on a major forum. I would have called them and said - hey - why is the Sg of the water I received xxxxxx. Do you maintain all of your fish that way - and gotten their response. Because your post suggests they keep their fish in that environment. BTW-i have no clue if they do or dont - nor do I care.

You say you aren't 'slamming them' - ok - that was too strong but - my guess is that you weren't complementing them either lol. You seemed to be implying they were keeping their fish in a low sg as a cryptocaryon inhibitor - or maybe im wrong.

 

[chefjpaul]

This was this post of the original poster in this thread - despite the discussion - and despite the original posters request to 'remain civil' or something like that - I want to say (as civilly as possible) this is the stupidest topic have ever read. First - Its Crytocaryon - not 'Ich'. Secondly - saying 'so what' to a problem at which millions of dollars re being 'thrown at' in the fish farming industry seems like a completely ridiculous proposition.

One can believe in the 'ich management' philosophy - and others - but I guess after thinking about this for a bit - I think the OP is extremely uneducated - or else was t5ying to provoke a discussion which was resolved months ago.. I argued ( his side ) a couple times - but there is literally no real defense from a scientific basis - Some people get lucky - the rest ignore the deaths as a price of keeping an aquarium. (Luck being the fish they are buying have immunity/.limited immunity) - or are from a good system. I do not think there is any data that suggest 'good feeding' to 'boost the immune system' prevents death from this parasite. Note - I dont mean that oh - I saw a spot on a fin - and in 3 weeks it was gone - so I must have been feeding appropriately - or had a good flow - thats not scientific - that's anecdote.

Like I said once before - I was in this camp - until one fish changed my (and 20 other fish = 2000$) mind very quickly. The fact is that most fish from retailers do hot have Ich - so QT is worthless - but - the percent that do cause the problem - its like Russian roulette.... IMHO.

[emoji106]

 

[Syed123]

Ich isn't a big deal since fish can live with it. I believe there was a research paper that said that the marine ich parasites loose their potency and die off after 9 months if no new strains are added to the tank. Ich is slow acting and not as overwhelming as other diseases. Yeah I wouldn't quarantine for ich personally. But I would not advocate for not QT'ing for it.
Brooklynella and Marine Velvet on the other hand are on a whole other level. QT for those diseases is a must.

 

[4FordFamily]

Ich isn't a big deal since fish can live with it. I believe there was a research paper that said that the marine ich parasites loose their potency and die off after 9 months if no new strains are added to the tank. Ich is slow acting and not as overwhelming as other diseases. Yeah I wouldn't quarantine for ich personally. But I would not advocate for not QT'ing for it.
Brooklynella and Marine Velvet on the other hand are on a whole other level. QT for those diseases is a must.

I’ve had regular ich take out fish if too many become infested it can reach critical mass — but definitely there are worse parasites!

Unfortunately, many cannot tell the difference between velvet and a bad case of ich

 

[norfolkgarden]

Thanks to Paul B's suggestion of feeding black worms the Banghai Cardinal fish are now spawning.

Hope everyone is enjoying their tanks.

 

[chefjpaul]

Thanks to Paul B's suggestion of feeding black worms the Banghai Cardinal fish are now spawning.

Hope everyone is enjoying their tanks.

I'm going to try that with my wife

 

[rkpetersen]

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

LOL!

One thing that wasn't mentioned is diatom filters. Many many moons ago this was the common solution for Ich. Diatom filters are not in common use anymore (but still exist!). They can eliminate the free-swimming stage of Ich. So used regularly, they could potentially be another Ich management tool. Something that I thought might be helpful to mention.

I also wanted to say that I'm at the other end of the hobby here in the Philippines. I see the fish wholesalers here as well as the divers that collect from the ocean.
I will tell you this is a third-world country. 50 Pesos is about a Dollar (USD). The fishermen definitely use cyanide to collect. I will throw a possibility in here (although I can honestly say I really think it's unlikely) that maybe they are getting better at minimizing the dose?
If you don't know anything about it, first of all, they usually go down to collect with an air hose to the surface (which is very dangerous) and are lucky if they have swimming goggles. The fins they use are wooden. (so don't imagine they have any SCUBA instruction or gear. The cyanide is in a small plastic squeezable bottle with a nozzle tip. They spray cyanide at the target fish or invert and it paralyzes it. Too heavy a dose will insta-kill the organism. Heavy doses will paralyze but not insta-kill. The effects will still be fatal but will take time depending on the size and species of fish. That's why sometimes your fish won't eat / will die for no real reason in your tanks. Sometimes the does is just right and will only stun the fish without any lethal after effects. Depends on water currents, size of the fish, species, the strength of the solution in the bottle, experience of the fisherman, etc, etc, .... (in other words, luck)
Keep in mind there is more than just one fisherman collecting for that business and they need to compete with each other to make money for that day, so that they and their family can eat something. Then, there are a lot more than just that one collection business getting fish from the ocean. So businesses are also competing with each other. So, ......no pressure.
Now the fishermen get maybe 1 or 2 Pesos for each fish they can catch (after triage) - and trust me, that's being generous. And honestly from what I see here, that's never going to change. That's the way it is. EVERYONE catches with cyanide because it's not realistic to catch with a net compared to the number of fish they can get using cyanide and they need to eat, period. Here, Indonesia, etc,... I'm pretty sure it's the same everywhere, just to be able to compete.
Another thing, please please don't even imagine that they care about lives of ornamental fish. They absolutely don't care about the health of the fish at all. It's a commodity for them, nothing more. They are not raised like people in the west and their priorities are very different.
Aside from that, once the fish are taken out of the ocean, don't imagine a nice facility. It's plastic bags. [When I first saw this, I absolutely couldn't believe it] Maybe hundreds of bagged fish all over the floor.
The wholesalers/exporters get the fish from the collection businesses, maybe the next day. Wholesaler facilities vary greatly in quality from one wholesaler to the next. This post is already long so to be brief, I'll say that the wholesalers are experts at triaging the fish that are fatally dosed or not. The fatally dosed are rejected and go to local fish shops and the quality fish get exported. The norm is keeping the fish that come in from the collection businesses in the original plastic bag they were put in, for about a week, meaning 5 to 7 days.

So I respectfully disagree with the idea presented earlier in the thread that more and more fish are being collected ethically. No way.

In those local fish stores here, (again to be brief) thousands and thousands of really beautiful reef fish die. That's per week. For example a (large) moorish idol is about a dollar and very common here. Powder blue tang, 1 Peso, very common, etc,....

Just to give you a realistic idea of where your fish are coming from. [Honestly, it's actually a wonder anything survives]

 

[eatbreakfast]

LOL!

One thing that wasn't mentioned is diatom filters. Many many moons ago this was the common solution for Ich. Diatom filters are not in common use anymore (but still exist!). They can eliminate the free-swimming stage of Ich. So used regularly, they could potentially be another Ich management tool. Something that I thought might be helpful to mention.

I also wanted to say that I'm at the other end of the hobby here in the Philippines. I see the fish wholesalers here as well as the divers that collect from the ocean.
I will tell you this is a third-world country. 50 Pesos is about a Dollar (USD). The fishermen definitely use cyanide to collect. I will throw a possibility in here (although I can honestly say I really think it's unlikely) that maybe they are getting better at minimizing the dose?
If you don't know anything about it, first of all, they usually go down to collect with an air hose to the surface (which is very dangerous) and are lucky if they have swimming goggles. The fins they use are wooden. (so don't imagine they have any SCUBA instruction or gear. The cyanide is in a small plastic squeezable bottle with a nozzle tip. They spray cyanide at the target fish or invert and it paralyzes it. Too heavy a dose will insta-kill the organism. Heavy doses will paralyze but not insta-kill. The effects will still be fatal but will take time depending on the size and species of fish. That's why sometimes your fish won't eat / will die for no real reason in your tanks. Sometimes the does is just right and will only stun the fish without any lethal after effects. Depends on water currents, size of the fish, species, the strength of the solution in the bottle, experience of the fisherman, etc, etc, .... (in other words, luck)
Keep in mind there is more than just one fisherman collecting for that business and they need to compete with each other to make money for that day, so that they and their family can eat something. Then, there are a lot more than just that one collection business getting fish from the ocean. So businesses are also competing with each other. So, ......no pressure.
Now the fishermen get maybe 1 or 2 Pesos for each fish they can catch (after triage) - and trust me, that's being generous. And honestly from what I see here, that's never going to change. That's the way it is. EVERYONE catches with cyanide because it's not realistic to catch with a net compared to the number of fish they can get using cyanide and they need to eat, period. Here, Indonesia, etc,... I'm pretty sure it's the same everywhere, just to be able to compete.
Another thing, please please don't even imagine that they care about lives of ornamental fish. They absolutely don't care about the health of the fish at all. It's a commodity for them, nothing more. They are not raised like people in the west and their priorities are very different.
Aside from that, once the fish are taken out of the ocean, don't imagine a nice facility. It's plastic bags. [When I first saw this, I absolutely couldn't believe it] Maybe hundreds of bagged fish all over the floor.
The wholesalers/exporters get the fish from the collection businesses, maybe the next day. Wholesaler facilities vary greatly in quality from one wholesaler to the next. This post is already long so to be brief, I'll say that the wholesalers are experts at triaging the fish that are fatally dosed or not. The fatally dosed are rejected and go to local fish shops and the quality fish get exported. The norm is keeping the fish that come in from the collection businesses in the original plastic bag they were put in, for about a week, meaning 5 to 7 days.

So I respectfully disagree with the idea presented earlier in the thread that more and more fish are being collected ethically. No way.

In those local fish stores here, (again to be brief) thousands and thousands of really beautiful reef fish die. That's per week. For example a (large) moorish idol is about a dollar and very common here. Powder blue tang, 1 Peso, very common, etc,....

Just to give you a realistic idea of where your fish are coming from. [Honestly, it's actually a wonder anything survives]

Some of this info is accurate, some is still going on, and soe is outdated.

Cyanide is still being used, but more and more collectors are moving away from it.

From collectors I have seen, the fish don't get bagged until they reach the facility, which in some cases is a kitchen or linoleum floored room. Rather, from capture to landing, they are kept on the boat in round totes, using the hoses that the collectors were just using and an air compressor.

They fill the orders received, then dump the fish back into the ocean. (In Indonesia this is how Bangaii cardinals got introduced to Bali).

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Some of this info is accurate, some is still going on, and soe is outdated.

Cyanide is still being used, but more and more collectors are moving away from it.

Respectufully, what do you know about it? And I stand by what I said before, which contradicts what you just said. You're gonna have to give more than just some typed words. I live here and know these people. I've gone fishing with them.

From collectors I have seen, the fish don't get bagged until they reach the facility, which in some cases is a kitchen or linoleum floored room. Rather, from capture to landing, they are kept on the boat in round totes, using the hoses that the collectors were just using and an air compressor.

LOL! What have you seen and where and for how long? I wonder what boat you're thinking of. The fish are kept in an inflated tire innertube that has a net going down into the water through the center hole, while they are collecting in the ocean. On the boat, it's an old 5gal bucket. The boat doesn't have anything on it. It's a traditional wooden boat with stablizers on each side made from bamboo logs and bound with rope. There's certainly no compressor on there.
Yeah of course they are bagged when they get there but so what? You're point is? You misunderstood that I made it seem like they bag the fish in the boat? Like, an hour less in the bag? That's what you're trying to point out?
And they don't use air compressors, they use 02 cylinders (if they even have them).

They fill the orders received, then dump the fish back into the ocean. (In Indonesia this is how Bangaii cardinals got introduced to Bali).

No way. If that's your claim, you don't know what you're talking about. You think they'd dump something back? I'm laughing here.
If you really know, then please tell me exactly when and exactly where the bangai's got introduced.

And I've lived in Indo. I've lived in Jakarta and in Bali and I've been on many little islands.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Respectufully, what do you know about it?

I have seen several collection methods, I am friends with some collectors, and I have been in communication with others who have gone out with collectors.

I've gone fishing with them.


LOL! What have you seen and where and for how long? I wonder what boat you're thinking of. The fish are kept in an inflated tire innertube that has a net going down into the water through the center hole, while they are collecting in the ocean. On the boat, it's an old 5gal bucket. The boat doesn't have anything on it. It's a traditional wooden boat with stablizers on each side made from bamboo logs and bound with rope. There's certainly no compressor on there.
Yeah of course they are bagged when they get there but so what? You're point is? You misunderstood that I made it seem like they bag the fish in the boat? Like, an hour less in the bag? That's what you're trying to point out?
And they don't use air compressors, they use 02 cylinders (if they even have them).

I have seen larger boats for collecting that have 7-20divers in the water with most using air hoses to create a wall of bubbles to drive nearly all the fish to 2 divers with a large net collecting everything they can.

In smaller operations, divers use mini spears for mandarins, grab a coral head and lift it out of the water with a net underneath for chromis and anthias, drive firefish into a large net, collect schooling tangs with large nets and sell the big ones for food and small ones for ornamentals.

02 is more expensive than compressed air. These poor fishermen aren't using 02.

No way. If that's your claim, you don't know what you're talking about. You think they'd dump something back? I'm laughing here.
If you really know, then please tell me exactly when and exactly where the bangai's got introduced.

Go diving in Bali, Banggaii cardinals are there by the droves. They were discovered in the late 90's and at the time were endemic to the Bangaii atoll. Bangaii cardinals only have value in the aquarium industry. They weren't in Bali prior to the aquarium industry, but have proliferated since.