Ich in the aquarium. So what?

[norfolkgarden]

Ich in rhe aquarium. So what?

So this is probably going to be controversial so if we could all remain calm and discuss this rationally that would be great.
This is a serious question and I have sort of made up my own mind but I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts.

I don't expect to have a perfectly sterile tank and always assume that Ich or other diseases are possible and the best long term defense is feeding a very healthy diet and maintaining healthy parameters and choosing fish tank mates appropriately.

Locally you can find Mersa, vibrio and a host of other horrible things in the general environment.
Once you start reading up on this stuff you will want to hide in the house for a week like an older Howard Hughes.
For the most part, people with already compromised immune systems and the elderly and small children are the most vulnerable to these things.
Normal healthy non-alcoholic adults mostly get to stay that way.
(Thankfully)

Quarantining new fish with Prazipro for parasitic worms I can understand.
But Ich?

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Big G]

Velvet is rampant in the aquarium industry. I found out the hard way and lost a tank full of fish in QT a couple of months ago. In its early stages, there are overlapping symptoms of Ich and Velvet. If I had added even one of those infected fish into my 90 display . . . .

 

[roberthu526]

I have lost thousands of dollars worth of fish and I am not sure how other people fell about it but I almost quit the hobby because of that. Now I QT all my new fish with Hypo and have not failed in two years. Of course I don’t add fish all the time. Only when a new system were setup. I don’t think taking steps to prevent ich is over reacting.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Velvet is rampant in the aquarium industry. I found out the hard way and lost a tank full of fish in QT a couple of months ago. In its early stages, there are overlapping symptoms of Ich and Velvet. If I had added even one of those infected fish into my 90 display . . . .

I have added small fish every month or so for the past 2 years. (Pretty sure I'm at full capacity now.)
I am one of those people who browse the tanks when I'm at the LFS getting frozen food or blackworms or a new boost of pods.
I buy corals online, but mostly like to look at the fish before I consider a purchase, and I usually stick with what's available on site.
I don't like to ask them to get something in specifically for me and then not like the condition of it when it shows up.

We recently purchased 4 Allen damsels from a very reputable seller that I have been very happy with in the past. All the other fish in the tank were fine and are still fine a month later.

We lost all 4 of the Allen damsels, 1 by 1, over a 3 week period. Not sure what they had but it wasn't Ich. They looked a little stressed but mostly good when we took them out of the bags. Aclimated for a hour and overnight in individual plastic fish keepers with a little live rock rubble to sleep next to until they really had a chance to get their legs under them.
All ate well before being released into the tank in the morning.
Everything looked fine for about 4 days.
The smallest one (which looked the best in the bags) was the first to go, then the others, 1 by 1.

BTW the last 2 Allen damsels were almost as cranky as a blue devil damsel. Wouldn't bother ordering them again.

Our other fish still look fine and nobody is missing dinner.
Would keeping the damsels in a quarantine tank have made a difference? Possibly.
Um, Did they catch something that was endemic to our tank? Possibly.
Would I set up a seperate tank for the occasional fish I used to add every other month. Nope.
No room for another tank, just observation at the fish store, eating at the fish store, maybe for several days, even at the chance of someone else buying it.


For the majority of people with a common sick fish,

If your fish are sick can you remember when you last did a waterchange?

Can you remember when you last checked parameters?
What parameters do you check?

Are you feeding Phyto and adding various copepods and some nori and feeding appropriate frozen foods for the fish you have,
or just pellets and flake once a day?

Some fish are always going to die due to internal parasites or injury or they are wild caught and simply older than they looked when you first bought them.
But most of the easy feeders should do well in an appropriate sized tank with appropriate tank mates and good food.
(and a cover for the tank [emoji4] )

I guess I just fall somewhere between "I use salt water for top offs" (met him 2 days ago at the LFS, working with him now.) and "I must sterilize everything like an operating room".

Hope your tanks are doing well.
Have a good one.

 

[eatbreakfast]

To a degree the OP is correct, a healthy fish fish with a properly developed immune system can withstand nearly all the commonly encountered parasites.

However, there are many factors that contribute to adding stress to the fish, which in turn causes the fish to produce cortisol, which in turn inhibits their immune system, allowing them to be susceptible to parasites. Temperature fluctuations, water quality fluctuations O2 levels, limited variety of diet, too many tankmates, inappropriate tankmates, loud noises outside the aquarium, sudden changes in lighting, sudden movements in the aquarium, equipment failure, transport and capture, are some things that contribute to a reduced immune response. Even a new sufficiently stressed fish can secrete cortisol in the water which can affect existing fishes immune system. Also, parasites in an aquarium can proliferate to much greater densities than the natural immune system of fish are designed to handle.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Thank you. [emoji4] always something new to learn.
Didn't know about the cortisol.

So in addition to falling ill, a sick fish has the ability to bring others down with it beyond being a host/vector for the parasite?

 

[eatbreakfast]

It would have to be a sufficiently sized fish, producing eñough cortisol that isn't taken out too quickly, but yes, it can happen.

 

[ca1ore]

It's a controversial topic in part because people have such varying experiences. Personally I have had tanks with ich that managed just fine, and others where I lost a significant number of fish. Why the difference? I think the answer is that there are just so many variables, including the fact that there are different strains of ich with presumably differing levels of potency.

I have been borderline OCD about quarantining all fish, yet I have ich in my system. I continue to QT because I don't want to introduce anything worse. I choose to manage it, and the only time I see symptoms is after a major stressor (like upgrading the tank) or upon introduction of a new, suceptible fish. Even them spots usually disappear after a few days and do not return, I do replace the carbon on my system when adding a new fish.

 

[Yuki Rihwa]

This is my way for new fishes introduce into a complete new system or old system without fishes.
First, I MUST make sure that my system stable as much as possible, I refer fishless cycle for over 6 months (my system able to process 4 ppm ammonia/nitrite within 24 hours) before I start adding live stock into my system.
Second, I selected all the fishes I wanted in my DT and make sure them compatible as best as possible, then add them all together to DT without quarantine them. I just overfeed them and let their immune system find it ways to deal with diseases, also be on schedule with your tank maintenance, I do 3x water changes per week for few months, then reduce to 2x times then 1x time a week.
Lastly, I DO NOT add new fishes to my tank unless everything died but so far in last few decades nothing wrong with my method of introduce new fishes into new system, everything stay healthy until I sold them out or they died of old ages.

 

[Big G]

Wholesalers are dosing their tanks with sub therapeutic levels of copper to tamp down losses and preserve appearance of their fish. So we buy a few or two and over the next few days, maybe a week or two, velvet, ich, etc. comes roaring back and then we see first one fish, then the next and lastly the strongest of the group succumb to disease. Probably what happened to your Allen damsels.

 

[norfolkgarden]

This is my way for new fishes introduce into a complete new system or old system without fishes.
First, I MUST make sure that my system stable as much as possible, I refer fishless cycle for over 6 months (my system able to process 4 ppm ammonia/nitrite within 24 hours) before I start adding live stock into my system.
Second, I selected all the fishes I wanted in my DT and make sure them compatible as best as possible, then add them all together to DT without quarantine them. I just overfeed them and let their immune system find it ways to deal with diseases, also be on schedule with your tank maintenance, I do 3x water changes per week for few months, then reduce to 2x times then 1x time a week.
Lastly, I DO NOT add new fishes to my tank unless everything died but so far in last few decades nothing wrong with my method of introduce new fishes into new system, everything stay healthy until I sold them out or they died of old ages.

We only have the one 75 gallon tank.
and a seperate smaller tank for the snowflake eel that I don't put my hands in. Lol

Our tank has been stocked as appropriate various healthy looking fish became available at the LFS.
Both for species, size and temperament of individual fish.

One and done never seemed possible.
Um, or enjoyable?

How many tanks do you have?

 

[Yuki Rihwa]

How many tanks do you have?

I used to have 6 tanks, 3 freshwater tanks and 3 saltwater tanks. I keep 1 tank as predator species, 1 species tank only for mantis shrimp, 1 colorful community tank.
Due to my schedule and getting old LOL I can't keep up with all the maintenance works so I shut down all freshwater tanks and other 2 saltwater tanks. So I have 1 tank left and I'm wander into new page of saltwater world...Mix reef tank

 

[ca1ore]

BTW, to my point earlier about 'not wanting to introduce anything worse' I've got a quartet of pyramid butterflyfish in QT that appear to have flukes. Trivial to treat in QT; a major pain in the display.

 

[MnFish1]

To a degree the OP is correct, a healthy fish fish with a properly developed immune system can withstand nearly all the commonly encountered parasites.

Not sure this is true (I agree with the second part of your post). Its all a matter of the numbers of parasites in the tank. In the wild - there is a much lower likelihood of high concentrations in a given area - in a tank - one one fish gets sick - ich can multiply rapidly. There are numerous scientific studies showing the mortality of ich on 'healthy' fish - its all a matter of 'dose'. The mortality of velvet - even in 'healthy' fish is extremely high (especially some of the newer strains).

If you are trying to say that fish that have been exposed to ich/velvet and survived are the ones with 'properly developed immune systems' its perhaps true. The cortisol thing I am not sure that a fish could 'excrete' a large enough dose of cortisol to affect other fish unless it was an extremely small aquarium.

 

[saltyhog]

Also, parasites in an aquarium can proliferate to much greater densities than the natural immune system of fish are designed to handle.

This IMO, is what makes Ich a serious consideration in my decision to QT every fish and prophylactically treat for it. The chances for a single infectious stage of the disease encountering a particular fish is infinitely smaller in the millions of gallons of the ocean than in our small glass boxes.

The fact that the virility of Ich varies from fish to fish and from one variety of Ich to another does make it possible to manage it once it's there. In some situations though, it can wipe out a whole tank.

I prefer to do my best to keep it out if possible. It doesn't prolong or make QT more difficult for me.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Not sure this is true (I agree with the second part of your post). Its all a matter of the numbers of parasites in the tank. In the wild - there is a much lower likelihood of high concentrations in a given area - in a tank - one one fish gets sick - ich can multiply rapidly. There are numerous scientific studies showing the mortality of ich on 'healthy' fish - its all a matter of 'dose'. The mortality of velvet - even in 'healthy' fish is extremely high (especially some of the newer strains).

If you are trying to say that fish that have been exposed to ich/velvet and survived are the ones with 'properly developed immune systems' its perhaps true.

There are studies that show that fish that are exposed to pathogens and survive do indeed develop immunity. These studies have also shown that fish with this type of immunity are resilient to greater parasite densities than fish without acquired immunity.

'
The cortisol thing I am not sure that a fish could 'excrete' a large enough dose of cortisol to affect other fish unless it was an extremely small aquarium.

Think of cortisol excretion to somebody farting in a large room. If you are not near the person farting there isn't any issue. However, if you are right next to the person farting, even in a sufficiently large room, you will be all too aware.

When a new fish is added, often it tries to find a place to hide. Usually though, all the prime real estate is claimed ad the 'owner' goes to confront. Depending on the species involved that confrontation includes displays in close proximity to the new fish, chasing, biting, or body-to-body contact. This brings the established fish into close range or contact with the cortisol rich slime coat of the very stressed fish.

 

[ca1ore]

Also, parasites in an aquarium can proliferate to much greater densities than the natural immune system of fish are designed to handle.

One of the things that I have long done is to run an oversized UV on my system. Not for some misguided presumption that it will rid the tank of ich (it will not) but because it may help to reduce parasite pressures and help to preserve the immunity of my fish population. TJ is absolutely correct that the confines of a home aquarium, no matter how large, enables the proliferation of parasites far above that which is presumably found in nature. Whether my use of UV restores more of a natural balance I cannot say, but anecdotally it certainly seems to help.

 

[Luno]

One of the things that I have long done is to run an oversized UV on my system. Not for some misguided presumption that it will rid the tank of ich (it will not) but because it may help to reduce parasite pressures and help to preserve the immunity of my fish population. TJ is absolutely correct that the confines of a home aquarium, no matter how large, enables the proliferation of parasites far above that which is presumably found in nature. Whether my use of UV restores more of a natural balance I cannot say, but anecdotally it certainly seems to help.

I was unsure of uv until I tried it. Ich was taking over I was about to pull everything out and go no fish for 90 days. A friend who shut down his tank not long prior said take my debary UV it helps a lot. My fish beat ich and everything turned back to normal. And I agree with your statement, it will not magically cure a sick fish. But a correct sized uv with correct flow and all water passing through SHOULD decrease population size and help the situation.

As a side note prior to that I had tried copper treatment and hypo-salinity. I feel the hypo-salinity was easier on the fish. Most aquariums run their fish only systems at a low salinity for that reason.

Also I do think quarantining new fish is pretty smart move. But having a uv in your system to help minimize outbreak of unwanted is a good idea as well. Better to either prevent a problem or have a safe guard in place than to fix a problem.

 

[MnFish1]

There are studies that show that fish that are exposed to pathogens and survive do indeed develop immunity. These studies have also shown that fish with this type of immunity are resilient to greater parasite densities than fish without acquired immunity.

Yes - Thats what I said I the second part of my post - (If you are trying to say that fish that have been exposed to ich/velvet and survived are the ones with 'properly developed immune systems' its perhaps true.). However if you took 100 'healthy fish (lets say 100 cultured adult clownfish' in 'good condition' with normal immune systems and exposed them to a high dose of Ich - as might be seen in the home aquarium - the mortality is very high. This is why the fish farming industry is trying to develop vaccines for velvet and ich - because only a small number of fish 'survive' the initial infection in crowded conditions. The fish that 'survive' - likely will do better with further infections. I do agree with you that an 'unhealthy' fish will do poorly with any infection/stress. I guess my problem with this philosophy is that by definition, every fish you buy (whether at an LFS or shipped) is going to be 'stressed' and susceptible to these infections (if indeed stress plays that much of a role in the immunology) as compared to the naturally high mortality of these infections.

Think of cortisol excretion to somebody farting in a large room. If you are not near the person farting there isn't any issue. However, if you are right next to the person farting, even in a sufficiently large room, you will be all too aware. When a new fish is added, often it tries to find a place to hide. Usually though, all the prime real estate is claimed ad the 'owner' goes to confront. Depending on the species involved that confrontation includes displays in close proximity to the new fish, chasing, biting, or body-to-body contact. This brings the established fish into close range or contact with the cortisol rich slime coat of the very stressed fish.

Still not sure about this. Its in interesting theory. Using your farting analogy - the problem - even for the person close to the 'farter' is extremely short limited - and not likely to affect them at all except momentarily. Clearly cortisol is released into the water when fish are stressed, etc. But not in large enough quantities to affect other fish. Stress can affect the slime coat - meaning that that fish is more susceptible to parasites, etc. But I am not sure that these levels cause problems to other fish unless they are under extremely close quarters - which in itself would be a problem.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I guess my problem with this philosophy is that by definition, every fish you buy (whether at an LFS or shipped) is going to be 'stressed' and susceptible to these infections (if indeed stress plays that much of a role in the immunology) as compared to the naturally high mortality of these infections.

The affect of stress on a fish's immune system has been widely studied, at least in the correlation with cortisol levels and immunity, and been shown to be a big factor regarding immunity.

Yes, most fish from an LFS or that have been shipped are very stresses, hence why qt is a very good idea.
When an established fish bites a new fish they actually take in the cortisol rich mucus.

Studies have shown elevated cortisol disrupts a fish's ability to produce their slime coat.

A healthy, even slime coat is a fish's first line of defense against parasites. An uneven slime coat gives an opening for parasites to 'latch on'.