Ich or velvet?

[Alex_hairymoney]

So I have always ran a ich management tank I have had ich in my tank for about six months. The first case was exactly 5 months ago. After a while it went away this December I decided to introduce a beautiful gold rim tang, I did notice the gold rim tang break out before anyone else, so I removed the gold rim, gave him to a buddy, this was two weeks ago I knew the ich was gonna spike again but I must admit this is worse than the first case it’s been exactly like this for a week it has not gotten worse, but it has not gotten better. All fishes are still eating like a pig.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I have always ran a ich management tank I have had ich in my tank for about six months. The first case was exactly 5 months ago. After a while it went away this December I decided to introduce a beautiful gold rim tang, I did notice the gold rim tang break out before anyone else, so I removed the gold rim, gave him to a buddy, this was two weeks ago I knew the ich was gonna spike again but I must admit this is worse than the first case it’s been exactly like this for a week it has not gotten worse, but it has not gotten better. All fishes are still eating like a pig.

Some of these fish have ich and some mucus cones with ich mixed in and as you can guess, all will need to be treated in a separate treatment tank using Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.
Ich management is not effective but often used because its easier and with hope and often does not prove to work and deemed a simple short-cut.

 

[Lavey29]

All those tangs and other fish in an undersized tank causes extreme stress on the fish and ich to break out. Now they are lying on the bottom dying....sad

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

All those tangs and other fish in an undersized tank causes extreme stress on the fish and ich to break out. Now they are lying on the bottom dying....sad

Undersize?? This is a Redsea reefer 1000 this tank is 265gallons it’s actually the biggest tank Redsea makes and you’re saying undersize? What more do you want a Seaquarium?, please before you comment if you have absolutely no clue of what you’re saying don’t say nothing at all, let the pros do the talking.

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

All those tangs and other fish in an undersized tank causes extreme stress on the fish and ich to break out. Now they are lying on the bottom dying....sad

And about the fish laying on the bottom that’s a fox face that has been laying down for over a year exactly how you see it,

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

Some of these fish have ich and some mucus cones with ich mixed in and as you can guess, all will need to be treated in a separate treatment tank using Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.
Ich management is not effective but often used because its easier and with hope and often does not prove to work and deemed a simple short-cut.

Yeah honestly brother when I ran it ich management I honestly had no problem at all for over a year, what caused the problem was the gold rim I should’ve just locked the aquarium and not introduced no further fish I have over 12 fishs in here I don’t have space to QT them and leave the dank fallow @ why I decided to run a ich management tank, I just need to know if it’s velvet or now

Thank you

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yeah honestly brother when I ran it ich management I honestly had no problem at all for over a year, what caused the problem was the gold rim I should’ve just locked the aquarium and not introduced no further fish I have over 12 fishs in here I don’t have space to QT them and leave the dank fallow @ why I decided to run a ich management tank, I just need to know if it’s velvet or now

Thank you

Ich based on size and location of given fish

 

[Lavey29]

Undersize?? This is a Redsea reefer 1000 this tank is 265gallons it’s actually the biggest tank Redsea makes and you’re saying undersize? What more do you want a Seaquarium?, please before you comment if you have absolutely no clue of what you’re saying don’t say nothing at all, let the pros do the talking.

Your prior threads with ich and other problems state you had a Red Sea XL350 then upgraded to XL525 about 6 months ago which is exactly where you stated your first ich problem started.

Post some full tank pics.

2 months ago you had a An XL525 and your current post here references this tank which you initially had ich in 6 months ago.

How can I lower my alkalinity?

Hello everyone I have Redsea reefer 525xl I skipped water changes for two months since I was extremely busy at work I would maintain the tank by cleaning the glass, changing the filters and cleaning the skimmer cup I noticed my alkalinity has been elevating for the last two weeks. I’ve done...

www.reef2reef.com

EMERGENCY - Tangs got ich

So luckily I do have a QT set up and everything to treat them how ever when I do put them in QT and finish the process wouldn’t they get it again since my DT has ich !??? It’s a Niger trigger fish which imma get ride of A blue tang And a purple tang I did let them ride it out for a few it’s...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[davidcalgary29]

I don’t have space to QT them and leave the dank fallow

Don't be intimated by the prospect of a hospital tank! When *something* wiped out one of my tanks three years ago, I put the survivors -- a gold-headed goby and a juvie navarchus -- in a 10g tank along with PVC bends, a heater, and lots of aeration. They both did fine and went back in the display two months later. I've since used totes, garbage bins, and other plastic containers for hospital treatment, and find that fish generally tolerate them well for the (relatively) short amounts of time that they're in treatment and your display lies fallow. You can do this!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah honestly brother when I ran it ich management I honestly had no problem at all for over a year, what caused the problem was the gold rim I should’ve just locked the aquarium and not introduced no further fish I have over 12 fishs in here I don’t have space to QT them and leave the dank fallow @ why I decided to run a ich management tank, I just need to know if it’s velvet or now

Thank you

That is ich on the fish, mixed in with some mucus plugs as @vetteguy53081 said.

Ich management is a fine balance, if/when it reaches a tipping point it just stops working. People don’t realize that one common way it fails is through the stress of “propagule pressure” - that is, a sudden increase in infective stages in the water, in this case from the new tang.

IMO you have two choices, neither of them easy: pull all the corals and inverts and run the whole tank in hyposalinity, or pull the fish and treat them with Coppersafe and let the display run fallow for 60 days.

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

That is ich on the fish, mixed in with some mucus plugs as @vetteguy53081 said.

Ich management is a fine balance, if/when it reaches a tipping point it just stops working. People don’t realize that one common way it fails is through the stress of “propagule pressure” - that is, a sudden increase in infective stages in the water, in this case from the new tang.

IMO you have two choices, neither of them easy: pull all the corals and inverts and run the whole tank in hyposalinity, or pull the fish and treat them with Coppersafe and let the display run fallow for 60 days.

Jay

Jay,

Wouldn't the use of an oversize UV help reduce the population of pathogens thereby giving the fish time to build up immunity considering OP didn't QT because lack of space thereby moving any contents not pragmatic at the moment? Otherwise seems pick what to save.

I'd run it for longer then 14 days as I recall him saying. Fact is I'd just install it permanently not to avoid ich in the future from non-quarantined fish but should inhabitants become stressed and pathogens try taking advantage.

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

Your prior threads with ich and other problems state you had a Red Sea XL350 then upgraded to XL525 about 6 months ago which is exactly where you stated your first ich problem started.

Post some full tank pics.

2 months ago you had a An XL525 and your current post here references this tank which you initially had ich in 6 months ago.

How can I lower my alkalinity?

Hello everyone I have Redsea reefer 525xl I skipped water changes for two months since I was extremely busy at work I would maintain the tank by cleaning the glass, changing the filters and cleaning the skimmer cup I noticed my alkalinity has been elevating for the last two weeks. I’ve done...

www.reef2reef.com

EMERGENCY - Tangs got ich

So luckily I do have a QT set up and everything to treat them how ever when I do put them in QT and finish the process wouldn’t they get it again since my DT has ich !??? It’s a Niger trigger fish which imma get ride of A blue tang And a purple tang I did let them ride it out for a few it’s...

www.reef2reef.com

Yes I did have a Redsea 350 prior to the 525 that tank is no longer w me, the 525 is in another room which is doing amazing all the fish beat ich and I haven’t added none to that tank, now explain based on my previous post how is a reefer 350- 525 to small for a tang / fox face? This post Specifically was to ID if the fishes have ich or velvet, not to get criticized by someone who clearly is clue less about the situation but rather give their pointless opinion based on what they assume. People like your self is the reason why myself and a lot of my local guys think twice on posting a thread for help on reef2reef, l
Also about the pic of the tank, what’s the point of that if it’s not the reason for the post.

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

That is ich on the fish, mixed in with some mucus plugs as @vetteguy53081 said.

Ich management is a fine balance, if/when it reaches a tipping point it just stops working. People don’t realize that one common way it fails is through the stress of “propagule pressure” - that is, a sudden increase in infective stages in the water, in this case from the new tang.

IMO you have two choices, neither of them easy: pull all the corals and inverts and run the whole tank in hyposalinity, or pull the fish and treat them with Coppersafe and let the display run fallow for 60 days.

Jay

Would consider the tank fallow for 60 days now, would that be enough time to get rid of the ich? Also is there a possibility of feeding and medicating the food to over come the ich and run a management tank, I consider your response thank you

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay,

Wouldn't the use of an oversize UV help reduce the population of pathogens thereby giving the fish time to build up immunity considering OP didn't QT because lack of space thereby moving any contents not pragmatic at the moment? Otherwise seems pick what to save.

Well, this person had been managing ich in their DT for some time, so the fish would have as much immunity as they are going to have really.
I’m not a great proponent for using UV to control active disease such as in this case - it often doesn’t work. The reason is that even the strongest UV only kills the theront stage. What happens in practical use is that the tomonts rest on the tank substrate and release their tomites/theronts at night, when some fish are sleeping near them. Those theronts swim up and infect the fish without ever going near the UV stream. The infection then continues…..

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Well, this person had been managing ich in their DT for some time, so the fish would have as much immunity as they are going to have really.
I’m not a great proponent for using UV to control active disease such as in this case - it often doesn’t work. The reason is that even the strongest UV only kills the theront stage. What happens in practical use is that the tomonts rest on the tank substrate and release their tomites/theronts at night, when some fish are sleeping near them. Those theronts swim up and infect the fish without ever going near the UV stream. The infection then continues…..

Jay

My thought process on minimizing the numbers of theronts for further infestation or re infestation. Give their immunity an opportunity to fight what has attached by having less to reattach.

My understanding being that if you remove the coral to copper treat the fish then coral can't come back since rocks will absorb some of it and moving that large a volume of fish requires a sizeable vessel to house them during treatment. Kind of lesser of two evils to me.

BTW, been years but does Poly Lab Medic or other supposedly safe treatments perhaps assist in conjunction with UV to reduce further infestation? Assisted by heavier feeding to help that immune system.

I know SW ich respond differently to temperature then FW but would raising the temperature to max tolerable by corals then turning lights off for extended periods while temps elevated perhaps accelerate ich development so that they fall off and theronts can now be reduced by UV? My understanding is that corals expel their dinos only when both heat stressed and photosynthesis occurs and why coral reefs have recovered when cooling occurred right after a heat event. Outside the box and something I've posted before but seems plausible based on real world events.

Just trying to find alternatives should moving either fish or coral not pragmatic as well as learning for my own because I won't have means to treat a large tank by moving either fish or corals. QT I will try my best but we all know that's not always guaranteed.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My thought process on minimizing the numbers of theronts for further infestation or re infestation. Give their immunity an opportunity to fight what has attached by having less to reattach.

My understanding being that if you remove the coral to copper treat the fish then coral can't come back since rocks will absorb some of it and moving that large a volume of fish requires a sizeable vessel to house them during treatment. Kind of lesser of two evils to me.

BTW, been years but does Poly Lab Medic or other supposedly safe treatments perhaps assist in conjunction with UV to reduce further infestation? Assisted by heavier feeding to help that immune system.

I know SW ich respond differently to temperature then FW but would raising the temperature to max tolerable by corals then turning lights off for extended periods while temps elevated perhaps accelerate ich development so that they fall off and theronts can now be reduced by UV? My understanding is that corals expel their dinos only when both heat stressed and photosynthesis occurs and why coral reefs have recovered when cooling occurred right after a heat event. Outside the box and something I've posted before but seems plausible based on real world events.

Just trying to find alternatives should moving either fish or coral not pragmatic as well as learning for my own because I won't have means to treat a large tank by moving either fish or corals. QT I will try my best but we all know that's not always guaranteed.

Coral cannot be returned for obvious reasons and UV is misunderstood as it will address free floating organisms and what passes through the unit and not erase ich or algae spores as many see it as. Velvet responds to temperature more than ich while at high temp, ich cycle may be shortened, oxygen is also reduced at high temps.
Polyp Medic is Peroxide salts and is ineffective in many cases and often an alternative and not a solution. Ay $40 for a little bottle, I would go the more effective way with coppersafe as everything mentioned leads to short cut methods leading to allowance of parasites to gain hold of a given fish and disease. A few Years ago, I had to move 27 fish from a 660 g to two tubs after trying a combo of polyp Lab and Ruby Rally as there are at times no recourse to save a given fish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My thought process on minimizing the numbers of theronts for further infestation or re infestation. Give their immunity an opportunity to fight what has attached by having less to reattach.

My understanding being that if you remove the coral to copper treat the fish then coral can't come back since rocks will absorb some of it and moving that large a volume of fish requires a sizeable vessel to house them during treatment. Kind of lesser of two evils to me.

BTW, been years but does Poly Lab Medic or other supposedly safe treatments perhaps assist in conjunction with UV to reduce further infestation? Assisted by heavier feeding to help that immune system.

I know SW ich respond differently to temperature then FW but would raising the temperature to max tolerable by corals then turning lights off for extended periods while temps elevated perhaps accelerate ich development so that they fall off and theronts can now be reduced by UV? My understanding is that corals expel their dinos only when both heat stressed and photosynthesis occurs and why coral reefs have recovered when cooling occurred right after a heat event. Outside the box and something I've posted before but seems plausible based on real world events.

Just trying to find alternatives should moving either fish or coral not pragmatic as well as learning for my own because I won't have means to treat a large tank by moving either fish or corals. QT I will try my best but we all know that's not always guaranteed.

The two options I suggested were to leave the fish in place and move the corals out and run hyposalinity, OR moving the fish out and treating them with copper - that way, no calcareous material is exposed to copper that would later on come out of solution and harm the corals.

Here is my write-up on "ich management":

Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Polyp Medic is Peroxide salts and is ineffective in many cases and often an alternative and not a solution. Ay $40 for a little bottle, I would go the more effective way with coppersafe as everything mentioned leads to short cut methods leading to allowance of parasites to gain hold of a given fish and disease. A few Years ago, I had to move 27 fish from a 660 g to two tubs after trying a combo of polyp Lab and Ruby Rally as there are at times no recourse to save a given fish

How safe is coppersafe, however? No experience with it and not much research on it.

 

[GARRIGA]

The two options I suggested were to leave the fish in place and move the corals out and run hyposalinity, OR moving the fish out and treating them with copper - that way, no calcareous material is exposed to copper that would later on come out of solution and harm the corals.

Here is my write-up on "ich management":

Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

Do peroxide salts with UV behave similar to hydrogen peroxide with UV where it releases free radicals which can oxidize contaminants yet very short lived. I'm currently researching sodium percarbonate as a form of creating my own hydrogen peroxide. Curious if that's what's in Poly Lab Medic?

I've considered your suggestion of vacuuming the gravel but came to the conclusion it would be more efficient to blow it with a powerhead and get it in suspension hoping the main filtration can process it. Looking into flocculants to bind the ich. No clue if latter works but might at a minimum remove any detritus hosting ich or other pathogens. Easier it is the more likely I'll do it concept.

Going to experiment with running UV post filtration so that it's more effective at treating what passes through it and dosing HP directly into the in-fluent of that filtration thereby maximizing the effectiveness of the UV to attack various contaminants beyond pathogens. Advanced Oxidation Process and been used in waste water treatment yet seems very plausible in our application. Key is disturbing the substrate and getting it's contents processed. Granted as you mentioned, might not be effective in this scenario due to advancement of infection.

BTW, didn't realize you mention lowering of salinity and yes that makes sense. Much easier to find a temporary home for unattached corals yet still an issue if it comes with rocks. Just seeking options for both the OP although mostly for myself. Trying to exhaust all knowledge so I get this right the first time although I'm sure something new will not have been thought of. Trying to minimize those.

 

[vetteguy53081]

How safe is coppersafe, however? No experience with it and not much research on it.

It is the safest of copper treatments known as chelated form. Same applies to copperpower
Ionic version - cupramine is more potent