Ich treatment... would this work??

[Gweeds1980]

As a lot of you will know, I have no intention of using this is my case... this was just out of interest...

I've pasted a FB post below, which is from one of my more forward thinking LFS owners (and one of the best LFS in the UK btw)... whilst normally I don't doubt him, I was curious to get a second opinion. Basically, would this treatment for ich work, if not why not?

The post is a little out of context... the previous post had been regarding copper treatment of ich in QT away from inverts etc. Ignore the reference to 1.5ppm, this was a typo and prev post should have said 0.5.

'There are a couple of errors in there. The copper level only needs to be 0.3ppm for 5 days at 28c (82F) and normal salinity levels. If used in combination with malachite green then 0.18ppm copper with 0.12ppm malachite green is sufficient. 1.5ppm copper would kill all the fish very quickly.
The copper level only needs to reach 0.3ppm (0.18ppm), for 20 minutes or so each day, just after lights out. There is no advantage in maintaining that level all the time, in fact it will just do more harm.
At 30c (86F), the fallow period in the main tank is only 28 days.'

If this does work, why isn't it being advised more often, seems to me that it would result in being ich free inside a month...

Discuss!

 

[Jason mack]

Bump !

 

[Gweeds1980]

@Humblefish @ngoodermuth @4FordFamily @melypr

 

[Gweeds1980]

Doh! @melypr1985 @Brew12

 

[Dr. Reef]

Not sure what copper med you are referring to.
I use coppersafe with chilated copper levels from 1.5 to 2 ppm with no ill effects.
While cupramine which is ionic copper requires levels of 0.5ppm.
Both forms of copper need to be at that strength for 21-30 days to be effective.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Ionic.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Not sure what copper med you are referring to.
I use coppersafe with chilated copper levels from 1.5 to 2 ppm with no ill effects.
While cupramine which is ionic copper requires levels of 0.5ppm.
Both forms of copper need to be at that strength for 21-30 days to be effective.

Thanks, it's the why I'm more interested in... As I understand it at higher temps the lifecycle of ich is shortened, which seems to be being taken advantage of here... but don't quite understand why this would or wouldn't work, beyond the 'must be 30 days at therapeutic dose'.

 

[miyags]

Would a tank full of sps last at 86* for 28 days? I have 4 thermometers and they all read different. It would be great if we could do 28 days fallow. For me that was the hardest part 3 months fallow. Treating the fish wasn't bad.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Raising temp does not shorten life cycle, it causes the parasite to grow through its stages faster. But that is not no guarantee that copper will be effective to kill all the parasite during its cycles. In fact I find it more problematic. As copper is only effective on 1 stage of ich (free floating looking for host). If parasite is going through its stages much faster than normal rate then that means your window to kill is is also shortened.
If in that shortened time frame copper is not successful to kill all free floating ich then it's just a matter of time they will multiply and get bigger in numbers.
Giving hobbyist a false sense that you cured the fish.
Higher temp also reduce oxygen in water causing more stress on fish grasping for air and if you are using medicine like prazipro it's probably not a good idea to lower oxygen levels.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Corals in natural oceans sometimes in low tides as in extremely shallow waters with temp reaching 86 to 88 f. And in real,low tides they are completely exposed out of water for some time but that doesn't mean that can be true in a glass box. If you want to make this happen then I would slowly acclimate them to higher temp which would cost lot more time.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Corals in natural oceans sometimes in low tides as in extremely shallow waters with temp reaching 86 to 88 f. And in real,low tides they are completely exposed out of water for some time but that doesn't mean that can be true in a glass box. If you want to make this happen then I would slowly acclimate them to higher temp which would cost lot more time.

Thanks, as I said, I have no intention of doing this in my tank... against my principles lol... just intrigued as to whether it would work and the whys.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Right I understand but honestly it can be done, the higher temp. Just will have to take several months raising the temp slowly to 86f.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Right I understand but honestly it can be done, the higher temp. Just will have to take several months raising the temp slowly to 86f.

Ok great... in your opinion could you successfully raise the temp in a significantly shorter time period? Ie over 2, 3 or 4 weeks? If so, then the fallow period would only be 28 days once 86f is achieved, so even if you increased it over a month and then ran 28 days, it'd be significantly shorter than the normal 76 days.

 

[Brew12]

I can't comment on the combination of meds but I can address the Ich treatment. Ich, at normal temperatures, will feed on a fish for no more than 7 days prior to falling off. Copper is "most effective" against ich after it hatches and prior to attaching to a host. If you treat your fish in copper for 10 days and then transfer them to a clean QT you only need to treat them for more than 7 days. I prefer 10 to 14. However, if you are going to pull the copper out of the system and leave the fish in it, you need the longer term copper exposure to kill the encysted ich as well as the free swimming stuff. That is the basis for the 30 day treatment.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yes, temporary exposure to copper will accomplish little, although its true that they are to some degree predictable about when they will "fall off", nowhere near to the extent that his would be effective. All it takes is one to complete its life cycle and it's rendered the treatment completely useless.

IMO the reason this person thinks it is effective is because it gives the fish time to be exposed to a lower number of parasites, probably paired with decent nutrition -- the fish's own immune system is what can be "credited" for the seemingly "cured" (devoid of parasites) end result. Unfortunately this is an illusion -- while some of the fish may not be affected by it now, that fish IS still a carrier and a small percentage of parasites will still host that fish out of sight and business will go as usual until a stress event or new fish is added that is, in essence, a "siting duck" that they pounce on in a moment of weakness, growing their numbers seemingly exponentially. This MAY weaken the other "immune" (resistant) fish's immune system to the point that the parasite again gets the upper hand and things quickly get too out of control for the immune system to fight them all-- a critical mass of sorts.

 

[4FordFamily]

This is probably a similar phenomenon to how ginger, garlic, reef safe remedies, lighter fluid (ok kidding on that one) whatever are credited for "eradicating ich". The fish's immune system was what caused the result, it happens in time for many fish, particularly in hardy species with thick slime coats.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Not all the parasite bodies are at the same stage at the same time. You may have 24% free floating, 75% cyst stage, 1% hosting on fish etc so even if you were to treat the free floating stage at the right time and copper is 100% successful to rid all free floating ich then there are still other stages that are in cycle and will carry over if fish are pulled out.
So this is a very difficult thing to say.
But if it was a perfect situation and we knew all 100% parasites were free floating and we managed to kill all 100% floating ich then and then only we can safely pull fish and call it cured but as you see there are many IF's in that statement.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Yea, this is extremely "edge of the blade" for treatment. There is no room for error or natural variables (i.e. parasites staggered lifecycle) Keeping at .3ppm copper is trouble in itself, as that is the MINIMUM therapeutic level. One fluctuation at the wrong time...free-swimmers sneak through...and boom, you've reset the clock.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yea, this is extremely "edge of the blade" for treatment. There is no room for error or natural variables (i.e. parasites staggered lifecycle) Keeping at .3ppm copper is trouble in itself, as that is the MINIMUM therapeutic level. One fluctuation at the wrong time...free-swimmers sneak through...and boom, you've reset the clock.

IMO it wouldn't work at all even if it were flawlessly implemented

 

[Paul B]

I think you are asking if Malachite green and copper would be effective for ich. The answer is yes. Mostly because of the copper which must be maintained at the "proper" lever despite the malachite. I use malachite often on fish eggs and sometimes on live worms to kill fungus. It also gives the worms a nice color. I like Bromythymal blue better, but I can't spell it.
Malachite was developed as a dye until they found out it can be used to kill fungus and some bacteria.
These combinations can kill ich but the absolute best, fastest way to kill ich is the normal dose of copper along with Quinicrine Hydrochloride which is a prescription med. I discovered this combination many years ago as I was experimenting and it will "clear" a fish of ich in a day. Not cure it, but clear it so you won't see any spots on the fish. I have used it many times in my tank, and in stores.
I am sure people will argue with me but it is what it is.