Ich/Velvet Quarantine best options question

[Thisisfine]

Have several fish that appear to have some type of infection (notably 2 tangs and 1 trigger) - I can't 100% tell if it's Ich or Velvet. My suspicion previously was Ich as one tang has displayed flashing, light spots etc. for several weeks; however after recent events (below) I noticed the two tangs more swimming into the wavemaker flow and the trigger has more of a dusted look. First off - I did not quarantine so we'll get that out of the way since I'm sure it will be asked. Live you learn; can't change the past but can fix future practices.

I've been working on parasite management with heavier feedings, adding selcon and garlic to frozen and pellet feedings and nori sheets every day. Things have seemed manageable for the last several weeks to month doing this practice. I ordered a UV sterilizer that will be installed next week; well oversized for tank volume to assist with parasitic management flow.

I have added new reef lights recently and a few frags and I suspect in this process I have introduced a fair amount of stress which seems to have stimulated things, especially hands in the tank futilely attempting to glue frags down.

So here's where I'm looking for best options. Tank has 11-12ish fish; four largest are two tangs, 1 foxface, 1 trigger. eradication or going fallow seems like a difficult option with this many fish (I'd purchase a 55g tank for quarantine). Would my best option be to buy a 55g, take the 2 tangs and trigger who seem to be afflicted the most and treat with copper (whatever the recommended regime is) then return after treatment? I'm just not sure 11-12 fish in a 55g for 2.5 months is sustainable for a fallow DT treatment considering the size of the 4 biggest (beyond that rest are relatively small 2-3").

Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

I think most people would suggest that if your fish start showing symptoms (especially of velvet rather than just dust) its an urgent issue to get them in treatment ASAP - and that would mean all of your fish. Copper at the appropriate levels would be the choice, and then a fallow period of 45-60 days for the tank.

If it's Ich, you may have more time. Did you make any recent additions (besides the coral - i.e. fish)? etc - I'm thinking a 55 gallon would be ok - with that size of fish. A picture/s of the affected fish would help. Is breathing a problem?

Assuming it's not flukes - copper will treat both Ich and velvet. Hope this helps

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Have several fish that appear to have some type of infection (notably 2 tangs and 1 trigger) - I can't 100% tell if it's Ich or Velvet. My suspicion previously was Ich as one tang has displayed flashing, light spots etc. for several weeks; however after recent events (below) I noticed the two tangs more swimming into the wavemaker flow and the trigger has more of a dusted look. First off - I did not quarantine so we'll get that out of the way since I'm sure it will be asked. Live you learn; can't change the past but can fix future practices.

I've been working on parasite management with heavier feedings, adding selcon and garlic to frozen and pellet feedings and nori sheets every day. Things have seemed manageable for the last several weeks to month doing this practice. I ordered a UV sterilizer that will be installed next week; well oversized for tank volume to assist with parasitic management flow.

I have added new reef lights recently and a few frags and I suspect in this process I have introduced a fair amount of stress which seems to have stimulated things, especially hands in the tank futilely attempting to glue frags down.

So here's where I'm looking for best options. Tank has 11-12ish fish; four largest are two tangs, 1 foxface, 1 trigger. eradication or going fallow seems like a difficult option with this many fish (I'd purchase a 55g tank for quarantine). Would my best option be to buy a 55g, take the 2 tangs and trigger who seem to be afflicted the most and treat with copper (whatever the recommended regime is) then return after treatment? I'm just not sure 11-12 fish in a 55g for 2.5 months is sustainable for a fallow DT treatment considering the size of the 4 biggest (beyond that rest are relatively small 2-3").

Thanks!

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Proper diagnosis is the first start. Can you post a clear video of the overall tank, as well as the affected fish? You may need to link to a Youtube video if you can't post it directly.

It does sound like ich to me, due to the relatively slow onset. It could also be flukes though, because not all fish are affected. Either way, don't count on a good diet to control those maladies. I call that the "chicken soup" syndrome - just like with people, it won't hurt, but it also won't cure an active disease.

In terms of what to do - assuming it is ich, what about moving your invertebrates out to another tank and running hyposalinity in your DT? If you have tons of corals, that isn't a good option, but in some cases with folks, their fish collection is greater than their coral collection and this then becomes a viable option.

Jay

 

[Thisisfine]

Thanks for the recommendations - Inverts would be easy to move (at least most of them); really just snails, hermits, purple urchin, sand sifter, cleaner shrimp and 2 tiger conchs. Coral, I do not have a ton of, few torches, lobo, some favia, zoas. I'd be more worried about the coral part with regards to lighting.

How long does the hyposalanity option take?

I'll try to get video or pictures once lights ramp up during the day.

 

[Thisisfine]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Proper diagnosis is the first start. Can you post a clear video of the overall tank, as well as the affected fish? You may need to link to a Youtube video if you can't post it directly.

It does sound like ich to me, due to the relatively slow onset. It could also be flukes though, because not all fish are affected. Either way, don't count on a good diet to control those maladies. I call that the "chicken soup" syndrome - just like with people, it won't hurt, but it also won't cure an active disease.

In terms of what to do - assuming it is ich, what about moving your invertebrates out to another tank and running hyposalinity in your DT? If you have tons of corals, that isn't a good option, but in some cases with folks, their fish collection is greater than their coral collection and this then becomes a viable option.

Jay

youtube vid 2
youtube vid 1

Links to youtube vids of tank and fish. Most don't like the camera but tried to get the ones that seemed most bothered. Not much for coral/inverts so moving them may be the easiest though I'll have to figure out the lighting issue with moving the corals. Probably not best videos but they move and hide and not at peak lighting.

 

[MnFish1]

youtube vid 2
youtube vid 1

Links to youtube vids of tank and fish. Most don't like the camera but tried to get the ones that seemed most bothered. Not much for coral/inverts so moving them may be the easiest though I'll have to figure out the lighting issue with moving the corals. Probably not best videos but they move and hide and not at peak lighting.

Nice tank and video - unfortunately - I can only see a couple spots - that to me look like Ich. In the bluish light it's hard to differentiate. I don't see any behavior suggesting flukes. The trigger is in the dark and not moving as much - but also seems to be hanging out by the cleaner shrimp?

 

[Thisisfine]

Nice tank and video - unfortunately - I can only see a couple spots - that to me look like Ich. In the bluish light it's hard to differentiate. I don't see any behavior suggesting flukes. The trigger is in the dark and not moving as much - but also seems to be hanging out by the cleaner shrimp?

Yeah, ever since a cleaner went in about 2 weeks ago they share a cave/space. He's intermittent in and out; for ex he's out now but if anyone gets close he'll likely dart back in. I'll try again in a bit and see if I can temporarily adjust the lights whiter.

 

[Thisisfine]

Nice tank and video - unfortunately - I can only see a couple spots - that to me look like Ich. In the bluish light it's hard to differentiate. I don't see any behavior suggesting flukes. The trigger is in the dark and not moving as much - but also seems to be hanging out by the cleaner shrimp?

new vid 1
new vid 2

adjusted lighting

 

[MnFish1]

To me at least the video didn't help much - I see a couple spots on a couple fish that seem like the size of Ich, However the tang also seems like dust, as you said. Because of the history, and the timeline, Ich seems more likely - and I would treat for that. Let's see what @Jay Hemdal says after watching the videos? I would consider copper vs hyposalinity. To answer your question - hypo salinity usually last 30 days at 1.009. There is a protocol posted on the sticky at the top of the forum

 

[Thisisfine]

To me at least the video didn't help much - I see a couple spots on a couple fish that seem like the size of Ich, However the tang also seems like dust, as you said. Because of the history, and the timeline, Ich seems more likely - and I would treat for that. Let's see what @Jay Hemdal says after watching the videos? I would consider copper vs hyposalinity. To answer your question - hypo salinity usually last 30 days at 1.009. There is a protocol posted on the sticky at the top of the forum

Thanks! Yeah it's hard to tell since I have to zoom so much and lose video quality. I do feel like I see dusting as well but again, this is been going on far longer than I'd speculate it being velvet. Hypo is probably the easiest than trying to get all of those fish out of that tank, there's a couple of firefish, a diamond watchman that hides beneath the rockwork etc. Also a midas blenny in the sump. That cleaner is going to town, usually all over the trigger but had the puffer pull up to his cave for a brief cleaning or tickle.

I read up on the hypo thread, 30 days at 1.009, slowly reducing the ppt and if it goes above 1.009 it starts the clock over. I guess my next step is to find some type of frag tank, temporary holding for coral and inverts for at least a month or more. I think most inverts would be fine, save for the sandsifter might be questionable in a bare bottom temp holding.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks! Yeah it's hard to tell since I have to zoom so much and lose video quality. I do feel like I see dusting as well but again, this is been going on far longer than I'd speculate it being velvet. Hypo is probably the easiest than trying to get all of those fish out of that tank, there's a couple of firefish, a diamond watchman that hides beneath the rockwork etc. Also a midas blenny in the sump. That cleaner is going to town, usually all over the trigger but had the puffer pull up to his cave for a brief cleaning or tickle.

I read up on the hypo thread, 30 days at 1.009, slowly reducing the ppt and if it goes above 1.009 it starts the clock over. I guess my next step is to find some type of frag tank, temporary holding for coral and inverts for at least a month or more. I think most inverts would be fine, save for the sandsifter might be questionable in a bare bottom temp holding.

I do see pretty clear ich on the goldrim tang. The other fish may have some ich spots, but I do see a lot of "scrapes and bumps", looks like somebody isn't playing nice in the tank. Sometimes, general rough looking fish actually have flukes, so I can't rule that out.

Looking at the small number of invertebrates in the tank, I would wonder if moving them out and running hyposalinity in the tank for 30 days would give you the best results. That will control both ich and flukes. It won't control velvet, but I do not see signs on that in the video.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Thisisfine]

I do see pretty clear ich on the goldrim tang. The other fish may have some ich spots, but I do see a lot of "scrapes and bumps", looks like somebody isn't playing nice in the tank. Sometimes, general rough looking fish actually have flukes, so I can't rule that out.

Looking at the small number of invertebrates in the tank, I would wonder if moving them out and running hyposalinity in the tank for 30 days would give you the best results. That will control both ich and flukes. It won't control velvet, but I do not see signs on that in the video.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Much appreciated!

So, if I remove the inverts and corals I need to a do checklist for a backup system for them to exist in during hyposalinity since it'll need to be a quick transfer.

Tank - (minor thoughts on something I can use for coral propagation in the future but would be sumpless)
Lights - I can take one of my or both of my new LEDs and just use the T5's in the DT or should that run without lights during hypo?
Temp Probe / Heater
Filtration - I have a backpack filter I can hook to a new smaller tank
Biofilter - This is where I'm not certain - should I add rock/sand, add live rock from a LFS, run empty/barebottom, add something like Fritz Turbo to jumpstart bacteria in new tank for the corals and inverts?
small wavemaker
ATO

Anything I'm missing as I'd have to gather this stuff expeditiously to get Hypo started?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Much appreciated!

So, if I remove the inverts and corals I need to a do checklist for a backup system for them to exist in during hyposalinity since it'll need to be a quick transfer.

Tank - (minor thoughts on something I can use for coral propagation in the future but would be sumpless)
Lights - I can take one of my or both of my new LEDs and just use the T5's in the DT or should that run without lights during hypo?
Temp Probe / Heater
Filtration - I have a backpack filter I can hook to a new smaller tank
Biofilter - This is where I'm not certain - should I add rock/sand, add live rock from a LFS, run empty/barebottom, add something like Fritz Turbo to jumpstart bacteria in new tank for the corals and inverts?
small wavemaker
ATO

Anything I'm missing as I'd have to gather this stuff expeditiously to get Hypo started?

You can move the lights over to the new invert tank, the fish in the DT just need enough light to see their food.

I would move rock and sand from the DT, not all of it, because those fish will need beneficial bacteria also. so just move some. It may be that the rock you move over with the inverts will be enough to handle the small amount of ammonia given off by them.

You can have some Fritz on hand, but in theory - your current tank has more than enough bacteria to handle the bioload of animals, and if you split the animals and the bacteria between two tanks, they will still be in balance.

Jay

 

[Thisisfine]

You can move the lights over to the new invert tank, the fish in the DT just need enough light to see their food.

I would move rock and sand from the DT, not all of it, because those fish will need beneficial bacteria also. so just move some. It may be that the rock you move over with the inverts will be enough to handle the small amount of ammonia given off by them.

You can have some Fritz on hand, but in theory - your current tank has more than enough bacteria to handle the bioload of animals, and if you split the animals and the bacteria between two tanks, they will still be in balance.

Jay

Awesome thanks. If I move some rock, sand, inverts, coral to a new tank - all of that would require a 76 day hold before returning to the DT correct, even after hypo is complete to ensure none of the rock/sand contain any of the dormant ich stage?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Awesome thanks. If I move some rock, sand, inverts, coral to a new tank - all of that would require a 76 day hold before returning to the DT correct, even after hypo is complete to ensure none of the rock/sand contain any of the dormant ich stage?

Yes, but 60 days is a more realistic time frame unless the water is cool, like below 78 f.

Jay

 

[Squidward]

Even if you treat those specific fish, ich is still in your system so you'll have a neverending battle with ich.

 

[Thisisfine]

Yes, but 60 days is a more realistic time frame unless the water is cool, like below 78 f.

Jay

Thanks! I've ordered a curbside 40 breeder/stand and then some equipment from amazon so I should be able to set up the Invert/Coral tank tomorrow and get the hypo process started soon. Gold rim is hiding a bit more this evening so need to get the process started asap. Thanks again for your help and we'll see where this goes.

One quick question for anyone reading - in the future sans ich after hypo DT treatment - I plan to leave the 40b up and maybe use it for bare bottom frag/grow-out system (possibly, or just leave it as a hospital tank for emergencies). Would this be an ok process - New fish if needed go into a smaller QT for copper/prazi treatment, then after the treatment is complete to frag/grow-out tank for further observation, then to DT?

 

[Thisisfine]

Even if you treat those specific fish, ich is still in your system so you'll have a neverending battle with ich.

Are you saying treating the DT with hypo treatment wouldn't eradicate ich in all forms and only for the fish themselves?

 

[Squidward]

Are you saying treating the DT with hypo treatment wouldn't eradicate ich in all forms and only for the fish themselves?

Ok I didn't read that part. That would work but I prefer going fallow.

 

[Thisisfine]

Ok I didn't read that part. That would work but I prefer going fallow.

I'd try it but I just don't know if have space or the ability to catch all these fish. 2 tangs (one's ~ 3", other is prob 4") Trigger (~5"), foxface (3"), diamond goby (~3"), leopard wrasse, few chromis, few firefish, longnose hawk, midas blenny (in sump), valentini puffer, bangai cardinal.

I have a 40b I'm picking up tomorrow and some equipment coming from amazon.