ICP and Trace Elements. Anybody ever in range and if so, how do you do it?

[Rick Mathew]

I guess I'm just assuming the equipment is sensitive enough to take those measurements and do it with some degree of accuracy.


No idea, but I always thought that the point of the ICP testing, provided it was done correctly on an appropriately calibrated machine, was to get a highly accurate, laboratory grade analysis of your water on items we cannot test for with hobby grade kits and confirm the readings on the things we can test for.

I guess the range they're using is subjective.... And clearly the tank is rapidly using the individual trace elements I'm individually dosing on a daily basis when I see a "not detected". I interpret a "deficient" reading as my daily dosing dosing is not high enough to get into their suggested range. I think the whole point of keeping the water "in range" is to make sure there is enough major and trace elements to keep the tank balanced and properly "feed" the inhabitants at all times. Should you have a non detected or deficient reading on an element you're dosing, my assumption would be that you are limiting growth or coloration as the corals would be using what you put in, and then eventually running out of what they need if you can't consistently keep the tank in range.

FWIW, this is all based on assumptions and I have zero scientific background. To put it simply, I have no idea what I"m talking about

You are not alone in your assumptions...not at all! Many of us assume precision and accuracy when it comes to an analytical test...but reality is often different!

 

[CNDReef]

Moonshining since August.
if you want control of your traces , reef moonshiners is the best method.

 

[DeputyDog95]

You are not alone in your assumptions...not at all! Many of us assume precision and accuracy when it comes to an analytical test...but reality is often different!

You may be right. I did another test this weekend and my results are inconsistent. Last week's Mg reading was 1290ppm and I added 200ml of the Reef Blueprint Mg supplement over 4 days which should have brought it up 60ppm or to 1350. Came in at around 1305. Way low, weird... Although I think some of my issues may have to do with the immaturity of the tank (a little over one year) and that it's mostly filled with frags.

I did get a majority of the traces except for Mn in range or slightly higher than the range for once. But now my Sr and K have jumped way up. I think that may have to do with my tank consuming 33ml/day of Alk and little to no Ca for some reason. I trusted the Trident seeing a trend in Ca uptake. It was wrong... So I dosed 5ml/day of Ca for about a week based on the Trident results before this ICP test and saw a significant rise in K and Sr after doing so. Both Sr and K which are included in the liquid Ca supplement. My assumption is that if it's not consuming much Ca, it's probably not consuming any K or Sr as well and I'm just piling those elements on.

This is exhausting.... And expensive. And time consuming. I may just go old school and go back to doing weekly 10% water changes with liquid A&B dosing.

 

[Rick Mathew]

You may be right. I did another test this weekend and my results are inconsistent. Last week's Mg reading was 1290ppm and I added 200ml of the Reef Blueprint Mg supplement over 4 days which should have brought it up 60ppm or to 1350. Came in at around 1305. Way low, weird... Although I think some of my issues may have to do with the immaturity of the tank (a little over one year) and that it's mostly filled with frags.

I did get a majority of the traces except for Mn in range or slightly higher than the range for once. But now my Sr and K have jumped way up. I think that may have to do with my tank consuming 33ml/day of Alk and little to no Ca for some reason. I trusted the Trident seeing a trend in Ca uptake. It was wrong... So I dosed 5ml/day of Ca for about a week based on the Trident results before this ICP test and saw a significant rise in K and Sr after doing so. Both Sr and K which are included in the liquid Ca supplement. My assumption is that if it's not consuming much Ca, it's probably not consuming any K or Sr as well and I'm just piling those elements on.

This is exhausting.... And expensive. And time consuming. I may just go old school and go back to doing weekly 10% water changes with liquid A&B dosing.

Do you do any testing yourself with available test kits...Like Hanna, Salifert etc.? It is my opinion that done correctly you will get plenty reliable results...The key is doing them correctly and with good lab practices....Here is a link to the articles I posted about this very subject ...They are titled "GETTING IT RIGHT" ...there are 4 parts https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/rick-mathew.66447/

There is also an article on the issue of sample storage as it relates to home testing as well as ICP...you might find this interesting especially related to your ICP results

 

[rtparty]

That's a cool system! Are you personally using it? If so, how is it going?

Been running it since February. Best method I've used in my 17 years

 

[DeputyDog95]

Do you do any testing yourself with available test kits...Like Hanna, Salifert etc.? It is my opinion that done correctly you will get plenty reliable results...The key is doing them correctly and with good lab practices....Here is a link to the articles I posted about this very subject ...They are titled "GETTING IT RIGHT" ...there are 4 parts https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/rick-mathew.66447/

There is also an article on the issue of sample storage as it relates to home testing as well as ICP...you might find this interesting especially related to your ICP results

I do also use Hanna and Salifert kits. They seem to mostly fall in line with the ICP's. To some degree anyway. Except for Mg... That one always seems to be way off as compared to Salifert.

I am fortunate that the ICP machine is in my town. I take a sample at noon, drop it off at the shop, and get my results that evening. So sample storage is not really an issue in my case. But I know I'm the oddball as most people have to mail them in, and wait.

I will go ahead and look over your articles more thoroughly there. I'm always learning something and I'm certain I'll pick up something up from your posts as well. Thank you!

 

[DeputyDog95]

Been running it since February. Best method I've used in my 17 years

Interesting and good to know. Thanks for the feedback. How many times have you ICP tested since you switched the Moonshiners method?

 

[rtparty]

Interesting and good to know. Thanks for the feedback. How many times have you ICP tested since you switched the Moonshiners method?

6 or 7 now. I tested monthly the first few months and now I am testing every 6-8 weeks.

 

[DeputyDog95]

6 or 7 now. I tested monthly the first few months and now I am testing every 6-8 weeks.

How is everything looking with your numbers? Can you share the results?

 

[rtparty]

How is everything looking with your numbers? Can you share the results?

Not sure if this link will work...

Analysis result

ATI Aquaristik - Lab

lab.atiaquaristik.com

With the RM method you don't want to see 100% but is unlikely you would ever see 100% anyway. Make sure you visit Andre's site and read the handbook if interested in the RM program

 

[Dan_P]

You may be right. I did another test this weekend and my results are inconsistent. Last week's Mg reading was 1290ppm and I added 200ml of the Reef Blueprint Mg supplement over 4 days which should have brought it up 60ppm or to 1350. Came in at around 1305. Way low, weird... Although I think some of my issues may have to do with the immaturity of the tank (a little over one year) and that it's mostly filled with frags.

I did get a majority of the traces except for Mn in range or slightly higher than the range for once. But now my Sr and K have jumped way up. I think that may have to do with my tank consuming 33ml/day of Alk and little to no Ca for some reason. I trusted the Trident seeing a trend in Ca uptake. It was wrong... So I dosed 5ml/day of Ca for about a week based on the Trident results before this ICP test and saw a significant rise in K and Sr after doing so. Both Sr and K which are included in the liquid Ca supplement. My assumption is that if it's not consuming much Ca, it's probably not consuming any K or Sr as well and I'm just piling those elements on.

This is exhausting.... And expensive. And time consuming. I may just go old school and go back to doing weekly 10% water changes with liquid A&B dosing.

You might be expecting too much from an ICP measurement of trace elements. The measurement is not likely to be as good as a Hanna Checker measurement. Maybe, you can use the ICP measurement in a semi-quantitative fashion, that is, the element is there or not, or there is a small amount or large amount of the element. That plus the health of your corals might be enough.

 

[Rick Mathew]

You might be expecting too much from an ICP measurement of trace elements. The measurement is not likely to be as good as a Hanna Checker measurement. Maybe, you can use the ICP measurement in a semi-quantitative fashion, that is, the element is there or not, or there is a small amount or large amount of the element. That plus the health of your corals might be enough.

Absolutely right on!

 

[Big E]

Been running it since February. Best method I've used in my 17 years

I'm curious what you were doing prior to this to see such a drastic improvement?

What were you low/high on in your first test?

Were you doing water changes prior to using the system?

 

[DeputyDog95]

You might be expecting too much from an ICP measurement of trace elements. The measurement is not likely to be as good as a Hanna Checker measurement. Maybe, you can use the ICP measurement in a semi-quantitative fashion, that is, the element is there or not, or there is a small amount or large amount of the element. That plus the health of your corals might be enough.

I guess the issue is that we can't actually test for most of these trace elements as hobbyists, at least that I'm aware of. I'm definitely a proponent of not dosing anything you can't test for. Hence running the ICP's. I still use my Hanna and Salifert for things like Ca, Mg, Alk, Nitrate, and PO4. But all these little trace elements are very difficult to get even relative values for without an ICP.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Absolutely right on!

I think my logic now, based on all the great information you guys have given me, is that I'm going to target the low end of the suggested range. It's better than being completely non detectable, and even if it's off... If I shoot for the low end and it's a little higher or a little lower, it'll still at least be present and I won't be overdosing the system on any one thing.

Does that seem reasonable?

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I was speaking in general about the trace elements, not necessarily a specific issue. The Reef Blueprint instructions are hyper conservative when it comes to dosing for obvious reasons, but it's really difficult to get things in range. As mentioned previously, I've been at this for a couple of months now, upping the dosages after each test. I guess it's a good sign to some degree that I'm adding individual elements and they're disappearing due to uptake. I'm just really surprised that a good salt with routine water changes doesn't get most of this stuff at least to the bottom of the range. Particularly surprising to be adding the individual elements on a daily basis and still be non detectable for a lot of them.

This is just part of the report. Essentially a "warning list" at the top. The report goes into a lot more detail about salinity, ratios, etc etc and gets a little fancier as you scroll down.

What I think is funny is I look at your list and every time I send an I CP test I am low on the exact same things just makes me wonder

 

[DeputyDog95]

Not sure if this link will work...

Analysis result

ATI Aquaristik - Lab

lab.atiaquaristik.com

With the RM method you don't want to see 100% but is unlikely you would ever see 100% anyway. Make sure you visit Andre's site and read the handbook if interested in the RM program

It did work. Thank you. Your major look good. But what does the "u." in the trace elements mean? I assume undetectable?

 

[DeputyDog95]

What I think is funny is I look at your list and every time I send an I CP test I am low on the exact same things just makes me wonder

Well, I have actually fixed most of that. My most recent test was much better. Actually got slightly out of range on the high side on a few which I've adjusted down.

On the other hand... The Reef Blueprint Alk Solution is K based, which has spiked my K levels and I'm going to have to swap back to what I was using before (Red Sea) as it's Sodium based. Or... Start dripping Kalk and use way less of his Alk solution.

 

[Eric R.]

@DeputyDog95 have you read or watched anything that Rich Ross has done on ICP? It's been pretty helpful for me to understand the limitations and what are reasonable expectations for hobbyists as far as accuracy. If you haven't, here's a link that may be worth checking out: https://reefs.com/magazine/skeptical-reefkeeping-12/

It may be worth your time to ask what the qualifications and experience is of the person that is running the ICP test, what the companies procedures are, especially related to calibration (how they calibrate and how often), and what the limits of detection (LODs) are for different elements. All of these things are discussed in detail in the article I linked above. If you're spending enough money and plan to rely a lot on ICP testing, it may be worth your time/money to purchase a certified artificial saltwater standard and submit that to the company to see how far off the ICP results are from the standard.

 

[DeputyDog95]

@DeputyDog95 have you read or watched anything that Rich Ross has done on ICP? It's been pretty helpful for me to understand the limitations and what are reasonable expectations for hobbyists as far as accuracy. If you haven't, here's a link that may be worth checking out: https://reefs.com/magazine/skeptical-reefkeeping-12/

It may be worth your time to ask what the qualifications and experience is of the person that is running the ICP test, what the companies procedures are, especially related to calibration (how they calibrate and how often), and what the limits of detection (LODs) are for different elements. All of these things are discussed in detail in the article I linked above. If you're spending enough money and plan to rely a lot on ICP testing, it may be worth your time/money to purchase a certified artificial saltwater standard and submit that to the company to see how far off the ICP results are from the standard.

Here's a little more info in the link below:

He's a full time scientist (physicist specifically) during his day job and runs the ICP machine there on weekends as a partner in the business. I've had lengthy discussions with him about calibration. He gets hyper detailed about the calibration process and the conversation quickly goes way over my head

Reef Labs - A New ICP Testing Service from Florida | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Reef Labs is a new ICP water testing service which expands the number of companies offering critical examination of saltwater aquarium chemistry in the United States. The inductively coupled plasma…

reefbuilders.com

Any idea where you get a reference standard like that? That's a very good idea.