ICP and Trace Elements. Anybody ever in range and if so, how do you do it?

DeputyDog95

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I have a one year (and change) old SPS tank that is a do-over from the last one that crashed. Probably 6 or 7 torch heads and 15 SPS frags at this point.

I started out using all Red Sea products again. However, my local LSF (Reef Masters) recently launched an ICP testing service (Reef Labs) and my first few ICP tests were not great. Deficient in most trace elements... In Red Sea's defense, I was not using Red Sea's trace element program as it always felt weird to dose trace elements based solely on Ca consumption and I just assumed water changes would buffer up most of the traces.

Reef Masters also carries a new line of products called Reef Blueprint (unrelated to them). It was developed by the former owner of Brightwell Aquatics after he sold Brightwell.

About 3 months ago, I decided to switch over to the entire Reef Blueprint line (salt, Ca, Alk, Mg, K, and the full line trace elements) and have continued to do ICP tests almost weekly. I'm both stubborn and impatient, and am trying to get the tank in line with a dosing program that puts everything in range, sooner than later.

I'm shocked at how many things that I'm still deficient in despite literally dosing specific trace elements daily... But I am getting closer. I'm slowly and methodically upping my trace element dosages and tracking it all with a spreadsheet after each ICP. I'm hopeful to get most everything in range here in a few more weeks and targeting the high end of the range so I can go to quarterly testing and make adjustments for the coral growth without actually dipping below the bottom threshold.

For those that simply ICP once in a blue moon and still get strong results with most trace elements in range, how are you doing it??? This is a ton of work and I would love to find an easier way. I suspect my last tank went sideways after what was probably years of missing or deficient trace elements.
 

taricha

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You might get better answers if you are more specific? Post a recent result, and or say which elements you are specifically deficient in.
 

JNalley

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I have a one year (and change) old SPS tank that is a do-over from the last one that crashed. Probably 6 or 7 torch heads and 15 SPS frags at this point.

I started out using all Red Sea products again. However, my local LSF (Reef Masters) recently launched an ICP testing service (Reef Labs) and my first few ICP tests were not great. Deficient in most trace elements... In Red Sea's defense, I was not using Red Sea's trace element program as it always felt weird to dose trace elements based solely on Ca consumption and I just assumed water changes would buffer up most of the traces.

Reef Masters also carries a new line of products called Reef Blueprint (unrelated to them). It was developed by the former owner of Brightwell Aquatics after he sold Brightwell.

About 3 months ago, I decided to switch over to the entire Reef Blueprint line (salt, Ca, Alk, Mg, K, and the full line trace elements) and have continued to do ICP tests almost weekly. I'm both stubborn and impatient, and am trying to get the tank in line with a dosing program that puts everything in range, sooner than later.

I'm shocked at how many things that I'm still deficient in despite literally dosing specific trace elements daily... But I am getting closer. I'm slowly and methodically upping my trace element dosages and tracking it all with a spreadsheet after each ICP. I'm hopeful to get most everything in range here in a few more weeks and targeting the high end of the range so I can go to quarterly testing and make adjustments for the coral growth without actually dipping below the bottom threshold.

For those that simply ICP once in a blue moon and still get strong results with most trace elements in range, how are you doing it??? This is a ton of work and I would love to find an easier way. I suspect my last tank went sideways after what was probably years of missing or deficient trace elements.
I will be doing my first ICP test in about another month, but, I read a blog post on ICP-Analysis, specifically about Iron deficiency in their corals, and their use of Red Sea products. Now, Iron is supposed to be at .15 in a reef tank according to them. Yet, they dosed and dosed and dosed and kept getting 0. So they upped the dosage and upped it again, and eventually got to their .15. After consulting with RedSea, they determined that the corals in the tank were Iron deficient and that that is why they had to do a large dose first. I do not follow RedSea's guidance of basing everything off of Calc, however, since you can't test for all traces (except by doing an ICP test) I came to this conclusion. I dose the Iron, Potassium, and Iodine to keep those nutrients stable (since I can actually test for them) and I will use the BioActive Minerals based on calc (since there's nothing else to base it off of), and I will ICP Test every 3 months and then adjust accordingly.
 

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I dose 30ml of each Red Sea ABCD once a month. After about a year I sent in a test sample to see where everything was since the tank was running for about 5 years and I hadn't done a water change in 4.5 years. To my amazement everything was spot on except phosphorous which was a little high.
I'm just gonna call it lucky. Here's a pic of the tank for reference.
20210513_154816.jpg
 

pigmo

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were pretty much always on for the past 3 years.

we diy most all traces. test 2 or 3x and calculate your uptake. use the 1st test as a baseline.
 
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DeputyDog95

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You might get better answers if you are more specific? Post a recent result, and or say which elements you are specifically deficient in.
I was speaking in general about the trace elements, not necessarily a specific issue. The Reef Blueprint instructions are hyper conservative when it comes to dosing for obvious reasons, but it's really difficult to get things in range. As mentioned previously, I've been at this for a couple of months now, upping the dosages after each test. I guess it's a good sign to some degree that I'm adding individual elements and they're disappearing due to uptake. I'm just really surprised that a good salt with routine water changes doesn't get most of this stuff at least to the bottom of the range. Particularly surprising to be adding the individual elements on a daily basis and still be non detectable for a lot of them.

This is just part of the report. Essentially a "warning list" at the top. The report goes into a lot more detail about salinity, ratios, etc etc and gets a little fancier as you scroll down.
 

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DeputyDog95

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I dose 30ml of each Red Sea ABCD once a month. After about a year I sent in a test sample to see where everything was since the tank was running for about 5 years and I hadn't done a water change in 4.5 years. To my amazement everything was spot on except phosphorous which was a little high.
I'm just gonna call it lucky. Here's a pic of the tank for reference.
20210513_154816.jpg


Color me impressed! We can't argue with those results! Your tank looks amazing. I'm shocked the Red Sea trace elements system works so well.

Unrelated, but you're the first person I've ever seen with a Picasso Trigger in a reef tank, let alone two triggers. No crabs or shrimp for you! :)
 
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DeputyDog95

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were pretty much always on for the past 3 years.

we diy most all traces. test 2 or 3x and calculate your uptake. use the 1st test as a baseline.


What brand of trace elements are you using?

I totally agree with your method, I just keep getting non detectable for lot of the elements so I can't figure out consumption. I"ll get there eventually! I got significantly more aggressive with the dosing this week so I'm hoping for better results today.
 
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DeputyDog95

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FWIW...

These are the products from Reef BluePrint I'm using:


And this is a new writeup on the ICP service I've been working with:


They're in my area which is kind of cool. No mailing anything. I drop off a sample on Sat afternoon and I get my results the same day around 6p or so.
 

HB AL

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Color me impressed! We can't argue with those results! Your tank looks amazing. I'm shocked the Red Sea trace elements system works so well.

Unrelated, but you're the first person I've ever seen with a Picasso Trigger in a reef tank, let alone two triggers. No crabs or shrimp for you! :)
Ummm, well I now have 8 triggers in my 180g, they are my favorite fish.
 

ScottB

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I do an ICP every quarter or so and I am almost always deficient in one trace or another. But it is fairly random, and since I don't ICP test that often, I don't bother dosing what I cannot personally test. I test ALK, NO3 and PO4 every week. The other elements like Ca, Mg, potassium and Iodine only if I am dosing or changing 2-part dosing levels.

I dose a large volume of ESV 2-Part daily, plus about 4 liters of kalkwasser. I do regular 20% WCs every two weeks with IORC. It seems to work for me.

Right side.JPG
 

taricha

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As mentioned previously, I've been at this for a couple of months now, upping the dosages after each test. I guess it's a good sign to some degree that I'm adding individual elements and they're disappearing due to uptake. I'm just really surprised that a good salt with routine water changes doesn't get most of this stuff at least to the bottom of the range. Particularly surprising to be adding the individual elements on a daily basis and still be non detectable for a lot of them.

This is just part of the report. Essentially a "warning list" at the top.
This is interesting.
a few quibbles with the "warning list" - it gives a target range but there's no particular reason to think that the ICP measurements can actually distinguish something in that range from too high or low or zero.
For many of those elements, the target "range" is single digit ppb. Again no indication that the ICP can actually deliver that precise an evaluation of your water.
The second part of my overall thought here is just what you alluded to yourself. If you add a target amount of X (daily!) and your water test shows it "deficient", doesn't that demonstrate pretty conclusively that the water test is a poor way to evaluate whether your system is deficient in X? I mean you know you are giving it X daily, if it depletes, then the system is (probably) assimilating it, so they are not deficient. If they aren't rapidly assimilating it, then ICP just can't measure your doses - again, not deficient.

Tagging @Dan_P and @Rick Mathew for the idea of a walk-up ICP with same day turnaround.
 
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DeputyDog95

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This is interesting.
a few quibbles with the "warning list" - it gives a target range but there's no particular reason to think that the ICP measurements can actually distinguish something in that range from too high or low or zero.
I guess I'm just assuming the equipment is sensitive enough to take those measurements and do it with some degree of accuracy.

For many of those elements, the target "range" is single digit ppb. Again no indication that the ICP can actually deliver that precise an evaluation of your water.
No idea, but I always thought that the point of the ICP testing, provided it was done correctly on an appropriately calibrated machine, was to get a highly accurate, laboratory grade analysis of your water on items we cannot test for with hobby grade kits and confirm the readings on the things we can test for.
The second part of my overall thought here is just what you alluded to yourself. If you add a target amount of X (daily!) and your water test shows it "deficient", doesn't that demonstrate pretty conclusively that the water test is a poor way to evaluate whether your system is deficient in X? I mean you know you are giving it X daily, if it depletes, then the system is (probably) assimilating it, so they are not deficient. If they aren't rapidly assimilating it, then ICP just can't measure your doses - again, not deficient.

Tagging @Dan_P and @Rick Mathew for the idea of a walk-up ICP with same day turnaround.
I guess the range they're using is subjective.... And clearly the tank is rapidly using the individual trace elements I'm individually dosing on a daily basis when I see a "not detected". I interpret a "deficient" reading as my daily dosing dosing is not high enough to get into their suggested range. I think the whole point of keeping the water "in range" is to make sure there is enough major and trace elements to keep the tank balanced and properly "feed" the inhabitants at all times. Should you have a non detected or deficient reading on an element you're dosing, my assumption would be that you are limiting growth or coloration as the corals would be using what you put in, and then eventually running out of what they need if you can't consistently keep the tank in range.

FWIW, this is all based on assumptions and I have zero scientific background. To put it simply, I have no idea what I"m talking about :)
 

Dan_P

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This is interesting.
a few quibbles with the "warning list" - it gives a target range but there's no particular reason to think that the ICP measurements can actually distinguish something in that range from too high or low or zero.
For many of those elements, the target "range" is single digit ppb. Again no indication that the ICP can actually deliver that precise an evaluation of your water.
The second part of my overall thought here is just what you alluded to yourself. If you add a target amount of X (daily!) and your water test shows it "deficient", doesn't that demonstrate pretty conclusively that the water test is a poor way to evaluate whether your system is deficient in X? I mean you know you are giving it X daily, if it depletes, then the system is (probably) assimilating it, so they are not deficient. If they aren't rapidly assimilating it, then ICP just can't measure your doses - again, not deficient.

Tagging @Dan_P and @Rick Mathew for the idea of a walk-up ICP with same day turnaround.
Yes, walk up ICP service would make sense. Disney figured out how to make the Fast Pass work to avoid standing in line. Quick access to Big Thunder Mountain or an ICP, same thing right?

I wonder about a lower tech option though. Is there a reporter species, a “canary in the coal mine“, that would reliably indicate sufficient trace elements? For example, ever since I started dosing Chaeto Gro to help out my flagging Ulva, all sorts of life forms have bloomed in my aquarium, not least of which is coralline algae. While we ponder a “fast pass ICP”, let’s also think about an “all natural“ way of detecting “sufficient” trace elements.
 

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In my 120 For the first 18 months I did no WC's.
I dose EZ trace since day 1.
I have never done an icp test.

I started doing WC's after doing a couple 10% 12 gals every few months.
I now do 1 12g every month.
The tank just looks better after one.

Back to trace elements.
I am now at 8ml a day of EZ trace.
I base my trace dosage by mag and K levels.

I chose this method as its simple and although it does not have every trace element it does do very well in both my 120 and 45 frag system.

My carx may add some trace elements but that has not been proven, imo.

10% WC every month will replace some but is used mainly for exporting things we cant test for.

I chose EZ trace as its works in the DSR method which I loosly follow.
20190914_170517.jpg
 
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DeputyDog95

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In my 120 For the first 18 months I did no WC's.
I dose EZ trace since day 1.
I have never done an icp test.

I started doing WC's after doing a couple 10% 12 gals every few months.
I now do 1 12g every month.
The tank just looks better after one.

Back to trace elements.
I am now at 8ml a day of EZ trace.
I base my trace dosage by mag and K levels.

I chose this method as its simple and although it does not have every trace element it does do very well in both my 120 and 45 frag system.

My carx may add some trace elements but that has not been proven, imo.

10% WC every month will replace some but is used mainly for exporting things we cant test for.

I chose EZ trace as its works in the DSR method which I loosly follow.
20190914_170517.jpg

It would be interesting to see what your numbers look like after using this product for that long. Appreciate the feedback. You ought to ICP your tank and see where it's landing. My last tank looked great, until it didn't unfortunately. I'm trying to take a better approach this time. We'll see if I have any better success though...
 

Spieg

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I do pretty infrequent WC (about 20-25% twice a year) and I dose ESV 2-part. For the most part, this keeps my trace elements where they should be (I do dose additional Potassium, Iron and Strontium about once a month based on previous ICP results). As a side note there in an ICP test facility very close to where I work and they usually have my results while I wait..
 

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