In-wall/Behind-wall, 180g peninsula, with a basement fish closet

[New&no clue]

can you get pics of ,where cut ?
pipe going into sumps ?
anything else ,you think needs addressing...

It's hard to get a good angle so you can see. However, the back pipe is slightly higher than the front one. The front one was cut. Please don't mind the plastic bag I was testing if one sump could handle all the tank's water without overflowing. If I take the bag off, water will flow down the back one, just at a lower volume then the front.

However, if I add valves on the drain line, couldn't I help regulate how much water is going through them and try to correct the height difference. Then with the added gate valve downstairs, control the return draw from each sump?

Another question. In my sump, the ball valve is right next to the tee. How do I cut the valve out and add a new gate valve? Or should I leave the valve in and add the gate valve next?

 

[fishguy242]

looks like ball is glued tight to tee,then ,glued ? into bulk on top of sump?
regulating overflows, can work with valves ,but not in event of power failure.
are both sumps at same level ? can we see.

i also have the twin pipes, one tad bit shorter ,but only one sump on the 300 gal,is loud and no valves.
on the 12'er i do have valves,as one drain is prob 4' further away.
closer one wanted more water. pics in a little while.

 

[New&no clue]

Yes, typically the sump as the same level. However, now they won’t stay level one is always higher then the other. I try to regulate with the ball valve but it won’t work. One or the other always has more water.

 

[fishguy242]

and these are tied together ,you added an extra cross pipe between ,correct?
below sump water line ?

 

[AllanPritchard]

In diagram form is this what you are looking to achieve? Two sumps pumping back independently.

A couple of questions:
Are the two sumps directly connected together ? or could they be connected ? This would open some options
Could Sump A be set higher then sum B with an overflow to sump B?
Could you fix the pipe you cut by adding on a joiner cut to the right height? you wouldn't need to glue it just push fit

With this setup, if Sump A pump fails then Pump B will keep pumping water back to the display. Some of the water will always keep going to Sump A. Eventually Sump B will run out of water. Can Sump A hold the volume of Sump B plus the slight height difference in the display (Shown as Y) ?

If it can't you will need to add some form of failsafe to the system. This could be a high water switch in both sumps that cuts out both returns or some form of flow sensor in the return from each pump that sends an alarm.

In regards to controlling the height of the two sumps without fixing the cut pipe in the overflow you would need to control the flow in the drain pipes rather than the flow from the pumps. Drain A is always getting 1/2 X + Y where as sump B is only getting 1/2 X so Sump A will have a higher water level. If you add a gate valve in to Drain A you can reduce the water flow so it matches Drain B.

Sorry for bombarding you with questions. Last one.
Is the two Drains (Drain A and B in my picture) the only Drains from the tank ? If so then you could set it up as a standard Herbie style overflow to Sump A and if the sumps can be connected then run the dual returns one as a redundancy.

Cheers
Al

 

[Beau_B]

"If it were my tank"

Since you have only 4 pipes; 2 drain, 2 return, it means you lack an emergency "open" channel right now.
I would now recommend switching to a Herbie design. Make the shorter side the actual drain line (and shorten further), which would then be split between the two sumps via a tee and 2x gate valves in the basement. Then the tall return pipe becomes the emergency and only has a trickle. Make that dump into whichever sump you care for.

To take it further (not necessary, but preferable) I also would probably have the refugium sump 4-6" higher than the filter sump, and direct pipe it together (use the existing bulkheads) and then put the return pump in the return chamber of the filter sump. That way you don't really have to balance them piping to the pump, which adds an unnecessary amount of adjustment. It would also solve the ATO problem as the system would then only have one true return chamber (the fuge sump being higher now gravity feeds in, much like a baffle system within a single sump).

Track all that?

Alternatively. to get back to "the way it was" ... The drain pipes in the overflow had better not be glued in place (angry face if your tank installer did glue them). Pull both, make adjustments to them (replace/cut/extend) so they are exactly the same length and reinstall. Then balance as before (ideally with a new gate valve near the return pump).

While it is possible to "unweld" pvc pipe and fittings it's not recommended (or easy) so it's best to cut and replace. If the valve is too close to the tee for a coupling, then replace tee... keep going upstream until there is space for couplings.

 

[Beau_B]

Al posted while I was typing. We have similar thoughts.

Herbie. Raise one sump, drain into other, pump out.

 

[jk_s124]

Sorry to read about your plumbing trouble. I am no expert on plumbing so I won’t chime in but I do hope the best for you!

 

[New&no clue]

First off, thank you, everyone, for the advice. Secondly, I seriously know very little about plumbing so let's take it slow.
Let's start with some current pictures and diagrams of the piping and sump. Hopefully, that will get us all on the same. Please enjoy my professional schematics of the piping.

The tank has two drain lines and two return lines. Each of the drain lines goes to a different sump. The sumps are drilled in the return sections, and hard plumbed to one external return pump. One return line returns to the tank and then splits into two separate returns. The return line is all SCH 40 PVC, and the drain lines are SCH 40 PVC out of the tank and then Flex pipe down and into the sumps.

 

[New&no clue]

Now to answer questions, let's start with @AllanPritchard

Are the two sumps directly connected together? or could they be connected? This would open some options
Yes, they are connected with Sch 40 PVC and the return pump between them.

Could Sump A be set higher then sum B with an overflow to sump B?
Ummmm… possibly. They are both sitting on the same level right now. I'm not sure if you could put something under one to make it higher up. Obviously, I want something to hold the weight and give good support.

Could you fix the pipe you cut by adding on a joiner cut to the right height? you wouldn't need to glue it just push fit
I did try that with a couple of different fitting, but I still couldn't get it to work.

Can Sump A hold the volume of Sump B plus the slight height difference in the display (Shown as Y) ?
Yes, I tested this. If, for some reason, one of the drain lines was blocked, all the water could go into one sump and not overflow.

Is the two Drains (Drain A and B in my picture) the only Drains from the tank? If so then you could set it up as a standard Herbie style overflow to Sump A and if the sumps can be connected then run the dual returns one as a redundancy.
I am confused about this part. I understand the Herbie drain (that's what I had on my red sea reefer), but what do you mean by dual returns? If you run all water into A, and then it flows into B, do you have your return pump in only B? What do you mean by dual returns?

 

[New&no clue]

@Beau_B I like your idea, it terrifies me, but I think that is the best way to do it as long as I understand it. So basically, I would have both drain lines go into Sump A (which is 4" up). It flows through and out the bulkhead down to Sump B, flows through and then up one return pump, and split into two return lines in the tank?

Let's start with making one sump higher then the other. Is there something I could put under one sump to raise it? Or would it be better to have them on two separate tables, one higher than the other? My preference would be something under one, so I don't need to find new tables for them to sit on (cinderblocks, bricks, etc.).

If the drain lines are going into one sump, do I still need to install a gate valve on the main drain, or should it be okay now? As I said, my Red Sea Reefer had Herbie-style plumbing and a gate valve on the drain, so it seems like I should still add that.

As this, all started with the UV, and I am redoing a bunch of the plumbing, I would like to plumb the UV into the return line. Do I just need to add a Tee and a valve before the UV and a tee afterward?

 

[New&no clue]

OM Freakin G, after typing all this out and thinking I have a good start to a plan here, I realize that the bulkheads for both sumps are in the return. SO While I can connect them together, sump A would flow into the return of sump B. Unless we can make a sump run backward, that doesn't help much.

 

[fishguy242]

hi, level your drains in overflow ,since no need for EM drain.
i don't know how to draw on cpu. ..
but this is what i'm thinking ,too keep levels equal in both sumps,without changing much...

 

[AllanPritchard]

Ok I'm getting the picture.

The bulkheads from the two sumps are in the return sections of each sump. I'm guessing there are no other bulkheads drilled in the either sump.

The dual returns is just two pumps running so imagine where the Tee is to your pump there is a 2 tees to two pumps. If one stops there other is still going. In this case its way too complicated to install so lets skip that one.

This is the diagram as I understand it. I'm not sure if I have the ball vales in the right place.

Maybe the following would work. yes I would recommend the gate valve in Drain A to tune the system I would probably add a gate valve after pump A so you can regulate the flow between the sumps. This way everything flows down Drain A to Fuge and is pumped to Sump B and then Pump B returns to the display. Drain B acts as an emergency overflow if Drain A is blocked.

Don't cut anything until other have chimed in, I may have it wrong, problem solving in groups produces better results

 

[DeniseAndy]

I feel for you. I decided to put a uv into my current plumbing and wow, after two failed attempts to add to the sump area and redoing tons of plumbing after all the cutting and such, I am now sitting with the uv under my main tank waiting to be installed for the past 5 or more months. (my sump is in the basement) Eventually, I will just run it as needed in the main system.

What a pain! I see the plan. Now, my understanding (it could be old thought though) that the water should never be restricted into a pump. Therefore, you should put the ball valves or gate valves on the outflow side of the pump, not the intake side.
I also have a ball valve on my return so I can shut it off if I want to limit overflow of tank while working in sump. I also had to restrict it for my former tank because of the overflow. My new one it is open fully all the time. Much better overflow system.

Sometimes it is so hard for me to picture without seeing it in person. Good luck and I hope it works out for you soon.

Great job on ridding the dinos!

 

[AllanPritchard]

As @DeniseAndy says, you should tune the pump output after the pump rather than restricting water into it ideally with gate valves as they are easier to tune. I would keep the ball valves before the pump for maintenance only. ie you can isolate you pump to clean it. I have shown the UV in the return line. Where I have shown the gate valve going into the UV I personally would add a ball valve as well. Simply so when you do maintenance on the UV you can close both ball valves and leave the gate valve set. Its not a biggy just a nice to have.

Below is the diagram form.

If plumping is not you thing you could start with building just the UV section and install it above the pink board on the return line. Once its built you can cut the return line and glue on the unions and fix it in place.
EDIT: Just make sure you have enough height above it to get the bulb out, I made that mistake

 

[New&no clue]

@AllanPritchard

You're design is pretty close to how I already had it when I added the UV in. The problem was there was no flow restriction, I was relying on both pumps to pull the same amount, which they did not.

So maybe the best solution is just to add a couple gate valves in after the pumps and on the main drain line.

 

[Sean Clark]

@AllanPritchard

You're design is pretty close to how I already had it when I added the UV in. The problem was there was no flow restriction, I was relying on both pumps to pull the same amount, which they did not.

So maybe the best solution is just to add a couple gate valves in after the pumps and on the main drain line.

This is nuts... I love it!

 

[AllanPritchard]

Funny enough that's how I first drew it before changing it to the main return which seems more standard. I still had the diversion for the UV so you could tune it to the right flow off pump A. There seems to be conflicting info if the UV is better after the mechanical filtration or before. I run mine off its own pump that is sized to the flow rate so its bit more simple for me. I'm in the process of building a new house with a fish room below like yours so will be plumbing it in eventually.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to seeing the updates

.

 

[New&no clue]

This is nuts... I love it!

LOL, I'm sorry. Did my screen name give you false hope that only sensible and serious behavior was ahead in this build?