increasing diameter of drain - impact to noise

[Detour]

I recently swapped out my older sump for a Bashsea star series (for separate return and skimmer chamber) and redid my plumbing. I have a 120 galling DT with two overflows with Durso standpipes. I was previously using 3/4 returns and 1" drains and ran my Eheim return pump full open - no issues with gurgling or noise. It was re-plumbed to use 1" returns and 1.5" drains - with a goal of increasing the turnover. I'm also now using a COR 20 return pump and installed two flow meters - one that all the return goes through and a 2nd for one of the two return splits.

I can't run the new setup must over 400GPH (on the main flow meter) without the noise being too much to tolerate. The drains surge with air bubbles into the sump. I confirmed my Eheim runs the same plumbing at 600GPH - so I've essentially decreased my turnover with the new sump and new plumbing - which wasn't the goal.

Was upsizing the drains a mistake? Other thoughts on what I can adjust or change to increase flow without the extra noise?

 

[lapin]

Remove the stand pipe and see if thats the problem. Air is comming in and not allowing for full siphon. A herbie is much better option for a large quiet overflow

 

[ClearRain]

Don't know if this will help or not, but I remember seeing Elite Aquatics make something like these.https://synergyreef.com/product/synergy-reef-sock-silencer/

 

[Detour]

Remove the stand pipe and see if thats the problem. Air is comming in and not allowing for full siphon. A herbie is much better option for a large quiet overflow

I've tried running without the upper part of the durso pipe attached - so just an open top pipe, and I still get the same noise/issue in the sump.

 

[Detour]

Don't know if this will help or not, but I remember seeing Elite Aquatics make something like these.https://synergyreef.com/product/synergy-reef-sock-silencer/

I've tried a number of different combinations of fittings and socks to try to make it more silent at the sump - but so far, I get much above 400 GPH and have it tolerable.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Do you have a gate valve on your drain line? That will stop the air and water mixture and remove the noise

 

[Detour]

Do you have a gate valve on your drain line? That will stop the air and water mixture and remove the noise

I do not- but could put one on the sump side of the bulkhead in the sump drain to test- it would be under water for the test, but in theory would work the same.

is it feasible to tune with a gate valve and still increase GPH turnover?

 

[Dburr1014]

Once you get full siphon and no air it should increase water volume. Can you do herby? I did in my 75, just ran the return over the top of the tank.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

You had zero noise/gurgling before, because your smaller drains were at full siphon. You can accomplish this with your bigger drains by increasing the flow(if your overflow can handle more) or adding gate valves to the drains and tuning the gate valves to get a full siphon from your current flow rate

 

[Detour]

Once you get full siphon and no air it should increase water volume. Can you do herby? I did in my 75, just ran the return over the top of the tank.

Evaluating options for herbie - but the issue is that turns my stand into a plumbing nightmare, as because I have 2 overflow boxes in my 120 - I potentially need to accommodate 6 plumbing runs - drain and emergency in each overflow and 2 returns over the back. And my new Bashsea sump only has 3 drain bulkheads. Sump and plumbing was redone to get a better sump chamber configuration and ideally, increase turnover rate.

 

[Detour]

You had zero noise/gurgling before, because your smaller drains were at full siphon. You can accomplish this with your bigger drains by increasing the flow(if your overflow can handle more) or adding gate valves to the drains and tuning the gate valves to get a full siphon from your current flow rate

The noise is "tolerable" at 400 GPH. My old Eheim runs the same plumbing setup at 600GPH - at which point the noise is definately not tolerable. Are you suggesting that at some higher flow rate the noise will be quieter and I should push the GPH turnover to the capacity of the drains/overflow and see if it gets any quieter?

Best way to tune this as far as gate valves and removing the tops of my durso standpipes while trying this approach? What order to adjust the gate valves and GPH through the system (COR 20 percentage)?

 

[NowGlazeIT]

The noise is "tolerable" at 400 GPH. My old Eheim runs the same plumbing setup at 600GPH - at which point the noise is definately not tolerable. Are you suggesting that at some higher flow rate the noise will be quieter and I should push the GPH turnover to the capacity of the drains/overflow and see if it gets any quieter?

Best way to tune this as far as gate valves and removing the tops of my durso standpipes while trying this approach? What order to adjust the gate valves and GPH through the system (COR 20 percentage)?

The noise is coming from air mixing with water in your drain lines. If you increase the flow in the drains you may be able to achieve a full siphon (this means that only water is going through the drains)
Sometimes the full siphon is too much flow for the overflow box or even the sump. If you cannot achieve a full siphon by increasing the flow rate to match your drain size (common hurdle) then add gate valves to your drains and slowly close the gate valves till your waterline is where you want it in your overflow box. The gate valves will constrict the flow acting as a buffer, keeping out air. I suggest adding gate valves towards the end of your drains. Stop the main pump, cut your pvc, glue your gate valves, wait 20 minutes and turn the pump on. Then start closing your gate valves till the gurgling stops, but double check the water level during your gate valve adjustments.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

You may be thinking “wait, more drain restrictions equal less flow, and I wants me some MO FlOW” you will get more flow when you remove the air from the equation. The air mixing in slows the flow. Full siphons move quickly

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I do not- but could put one on the sump side of the bulkhead in the sump drain to test- it would be under water for the test, but in theory would work the same.

is it feasible to tune with a gate valve and still increase GPH turnover?

Yes it is possible because a full siphon actually creates suction and that’s gonna up your gph

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Leave the tops to your durso on

 

[Detour]

Just coming back to this after having played with a few options. The best "trial" option has been to add gate valves in my sump on the drains (so they are on the sump side of the bulkheads in the sump). This is not a long term solution - as the gate valves I had to try out are Spears with metal screws on the handles.

So - now that I've confirmed that creating a choke point in the drains improves flow rate with reduced noise, I have some follow up questions as to how to best implement this.

QUESTION -
I originally upsized my drains to 1.5" between the 1" bulkheads in the tank to the 1.5" bulkheads on the sump. When I redo plumbing to add gate valves to the drains, should I keep the drains at 1.5" or redo with 1" up until the 1.5" bulkheads on the sump? If the 1.5" drains aren't gaining me anything and I'm just having to increase the choke point to compensate for the larger size - the extra room under the tank of downsizing the plumbing would be one benefit of this option.

QUESTION -
If the gate valves are installed before the sump on the drains, will I be adding some noise related the air that will be on the sump side of the gate valve and on into the sump? Since my trial choke point is literally at the end of my drains, there is very little air after them, so I have this fear that I'll cut into my plumbing, add the gates, and it won't be as quiet as it was during my trials....

QUESTION -
If I find a gate valve made out of material safe to be submersed - any issues with just keeping a valve at the end of the drain in the sump?


And as a failsafe, I'm also adding a float to the DT to shut down the return pump if water level gets backed up since I don't have an emergency drain option.