Instant ways to kill ich and velvet

[GARRIGA]

MarineLand magnum can be used with diatomaceous earth. Google it. There’s a good video from MarineLand.

Learned about DE filters to combat ich in the early 70s from a freshwater breeder that supplied the LFS. I’m betting it can clear dinos that are free swimming at night as well plus make water sparking clear.

Today’s generation often clueless to what worked long ago. Most LFS claim undergravel filters don’t work. Probably never used them. Used with too much flow or just prefer the profit from more expensive products. The hobby has become gear centric to the point showing off your sump more important than the life within the box of water.

I’ve seen that one and also like what this guy is doing. What do you think?

Looks promising but I’ve moved on once I discovered micron filters by Pentair and confirmed less than 20 microns solves capture ich as it’s just simpler. Search for @PaulB as he has a diy solution and might be in this thread. Been a way a while. Lose track of what’s been repeated or not.

That Magnum option just simper for me in smaller tanks or sumps and self contained but for larger systems best go with Paul’s diy solution and easy enough to implement.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Looks promising but I’ve moved on once I discovered micron filters by Pentair and confirmed less than 20 microns solves capture ich as it’s just simpler. Search for @PaulB as he has a diy solution and might be in this thread. Been a way a while. Lose track of what’s been repeated or not.

That Magnum option just simper for me in smaller tanks or sumps and self contained but for larger systems best go with Paul’s diy solution and easy enough to implement.

I had spent a lot of time and effort on using micron filtration as a means to combat ich, but in the end, I gave it up as a bad deal, except if used as one component in a proactive "ich management" technique. The problem started when Vortex Industries advertised that their diatom filters "cured ich" back in the 1970's. It sure seemed to make sense - ich tomites are larger than the expected pore size of those filters. Why didn't it work well?

It has to do with two related issues:

Dwell time: Especially in larger tanks, micron filtration cannot process enough water at 100% removal of the tomites to prevent reinfection. This is the same reason that UV doesn't work well to control active ich infections.

Ich life cycle: Ich tomonts release tomites in the early morning (in the dark). The fish are often sleeping near the bottom then. They get infected with new tomites before those ever rise into the water column to be filtered out.

There is also the issue of "filter bypass" that plagued the Vortex Diatom filters - they had a theoretical minimum particle filtration size, but incomplete coating of the screen meant that the effective filtration never met that minimum.

Mechanical filtration (including protein skimmers) will reduce the number of tomites in an aquarium, but I've never had that, by itself, cure active disease - not without a lack of trying though!

Jay

 

[threebuoys]

I bought a vortex in 1974. Same experience. When it was running, it seemed to work. After clogging up, i turned it off and the ich returned within a few days. I lost count of how many cycles i went through, each time wondering what i was doing wrong.

 

[GARRIGA]

Looks promising but I’ve moved on once I discovered micron filters by Pentair and confirmed less than 20 microns solves capture ich as it’s just simpler. Search for @PaulB as he has a diy solution and might be in this thread. Been a way a while. Lose track of what’s been repeated or not.

That Magnum option just simper for me in smaller tanks or sumps and self contained but for larger systems best go with Paul’s diy solution and easy enough to implement.

I had spent a lot of time and effort on using micron filtration as a means to combat ich, but in the end, I gave it up as a bad deal, except if used as one component in a proactive "ich management" technique. The problem started when Vortex Industries advertised that their diatom filters "cured ich" back in the 1970's. It sure seemed to make sense - ich tomites are larger than the expected pore size of those filters. Why didn't it work well?

It has to do with two related issues:

Dwell time: Especially in larger tanks, micron filtration cannot process enough water at 100% removal of the tomites to prevent reinfection. This is the same reason that UV doesn't work well to control active ich infections.

Ich life cycle: Ich tomonts release tomites in the early morning (in the dark). The fish are often sleeping near the bottom then. They get infected with new tomites before those ever rise into the water column to be filtered out.

There is also the issue of "filter bypass" that plagued the Vortex Diatom filters - they had a theoretical minimum particle filtration size, but incomplete coating of the screen meant that the effective filtration never met that minimum.

Mechanical filtration (including protein skimmers) will reduce the number of tomites in an aquarium, but I've never had that, by itself, cure active disease - not without a lack of trying though!

Jay

Agreed and looking at this a maintenance vs eradication due to how quickly it clogs.

However, for QT I’m going to use bare bottom tank with an undergravel filter and schedule 80 couplings and pipes cut in half to provide shelter yet not impede filter from drawing pathogens into the filter which will have a series of mechanical filtration stepping down before running through UV-C at double wattage than recommended for flow used. Idea is prolong filter clogging at the lower microns and have high enough flow to ensure best capture of most pathogens but not assume 100% captured. In addition add peroxide frequently enough to help assist the process at levels that don’t harm fish including high enough dosages with UV-C turned off to provide a bath like experience then turn UV-C on to decompose remaining peroxide. Salinity high enough to avoid issues yet low enough for fish as I recall being 20 some ppt.

Hoping to only use copper if this fails including any other medications and yet potentially allow natural immunity from low level exposure.

This approach provides biological as I’m trapping detritus and allowing it to decompose and first filter should trap most gross detritus allowing micron filtration extended time before needing to swap cartridges. Rather do that than TTM hassle or having to monitor copper levels.

20g tank plus undergravel filtered by FX2 with layers of different size sponges to capture large particles before running through two lower microns cartridges then appropriate sized UV-C which could also double as partially heating the tank if large enough. Seems expensive and convoluted but QT fish are very expensive and not everything I’m seeking can survive copper treatment plus time is money.

Once POC confirmed this can be upsized to 40g cubes or larger allowing onetime purchase of large group of fish and can setup a few if needed including separate for CUC and corals absent the peroxide, if needed. Still not sure how peroxide affects inverts.

Not going to seem pragmatic to most but what I’m currently going with. Have everything to get started but UV-C. Still trying to figure that out.

Feel free to point out any issues. Key is processing large groups of fish with least amount of effort including chance of salinity concerns such as trying to run that lower than needed or overdosing medications or the time consuming process with TTM.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Agreed and looking at this a maintenance vs eradication due to how quickly it clogs.

However, for QT I’m going to use bare bottom tank with an undergravel filter and schedule 80 couplings and pipes cut in half to provide shelter yet not impede filter from drawing pathogens into the filter which will have a series of mechanical filtration stepping down before running through UV-C at double wattage than recommended for flow used. Idea is prolong filter clogging at the lower microns and have high enough flow to ensure best capture of most pathogens but not assume 100% captured. In addition add peroxide frequently enough to help assist the process at levels that don’t harm fish including high enough dosages with UV-C turned off to provide a bath like experience then turn UV-C on to decompose remaining peroxide. Salinity high enough to avoid issues yet low enough for fish as I recall being 20 some ppt.

Hoping to only use copper if this fails including any other medications and yet potentially allow natural immunity from low level exposure.

This approach provides biological as I’m trapping detritus and allowing it to decompose and first filter should trap most gross detritus allowing micron filtration extended time before needing to swap cartridges. Rather do that than TTM hassle or having to monitor copper levels.

20g tank plus undergravel filtered by FX2 with layers of different size sponges to capture large particles before running through two lower microns cartridges then appropriate sized UV-C which could also double as partially heating the tank if large enough. Seems expensive and convoluted but QT fish are very expensive and not everything I’m seeking can survive copper treatment plus time is money.

Once POC confirmed this can be upsized to 40g cubes or larger allowing onetime purchase of large group of fish and can setup a few if needed including separate for CUC and corals absent the peroxide, if needed. Still not sure how peroxide affects inverts.

Not going to seem pragmatic to most but what I’m currently going with. Have everything to get started but UV-C. Still trying to figure that out.

Feel free to point out any issues. Key is processing large groups of fish with least amount of effort including chance of salinity concerns such as trying to run that lower than needed or overdosing medications or the time consuming process with TTM.

Bare bottom tanks (especially with early morning, daily siphoning of the bottom) will give MUCH better results than just using micron filtration in a standard aquarium. I'm not quite sure how the UG filter will operate in a bare tank though? If the sparger pipes pick up tomonts off the bottom (and pass them through the micron filter) before they release tomites, that could be a great benefit.

Pre-filtering is a very important aspect for micron filtration - getting the big stuff out before it enters the micron filter will increase the throughput and reduce the dwell time. I once messed around with "cold sterilization" for small QT - and it became immediately apparent that pre filtering was required - like a tertiary system: 100 micron to 25 micron to 10. I still saw undesirable flow reduction over a reasonable time.

 

[Paul B]

I have been using one of these filters that I designed without powder. I can buy 5, 10, or 15 micron elements pretty cheap but they seem to last forever anyway. After I am finished with it, I just open it which takes about 4 seconds and rinse off the element. After a few uses I just fill up the thing and add a little regular chlorine bleach and it is as good as new.



I don't use these for ich as my fish don't get that and probably never will, but I use it to stir up my reverse undergravel filter and blow detritus out of the rocks. I sometimes also use it when I collect our New York NSW which is brown and full of mud and chopped up seaweed which I don't want in my tank because it's ugly.

Lately I have a huge algae issue because I used Long Island Sound water which is loaded with fertilizer. That algae is dying in droves and I use the thing to suck the dead algae out.

My water is always crystal clear. These filters are simple to build for about $100.00 and I have a thread on here someplace with instructions.

It certainly will remove ich and if you run a quarantined tank it would probably "help" but I don't think it will cure anything. Different from the old Diatom filters by Vortex, mine has no by pass where the water can by pass the filter. 100% of the water will go through the membrane.

 

[GARRIGA]

Agreed and looking at this a maintenance vs eradication due to how quickly it clogs.

However, for QT I’m going to use bare bottom tank with an undergravel filter and schedule 80 couplings and pipes cut in half to provide shelter yet not impede filter from drawing pathogens into the filter which will have a series of mechanical filtration stepping down before running through UV-C at double wattage than recommended for flow used. Idea is prolong filter clogging at the lower microns and have high enough flow to ensure best capture of most pathogens but not assume 100% captured. In addition add peroxide frequently enough to help assist the process at levels that don’t harm fish including high enough dosages with UV-C turned off to provide a bath like experience then turn UV-C on to decompose remaining peroxide. Salinity high enough to avoid issues yet low enough for fish as I recall being 20 some ppt.

Hoping to only use copper if this fails including any other medications and yet potentially allow natural immunity from low level exposure.

This approach provides biological as I’m trapping detritus and allowing it to decompose and first filter should trap most gross detritus allowing micron filtration extended time before needing to swap cartridges. Rather do that than TTM hassle or having to monitor copper levels.

20g tank plus undergravel filtered by FX2 with layers of different size sponges to capture large particles before running through two lower microns cartridges then appropriate sized UV-C which could also double as partially heating the tank if large enough. Seems expensive and convoluted but QT fish are very expensive and not everything I’m seeking can survive copper treatment plus time is money.

Once POC confirmed this can be upsized to 40g cubes or larger allowing onetime purchase of large group of fish and can setup a few if needed including separate for CUC and corals absent the peroxide, if needed. Still not sure how peroxide affects inverts.

Not going to seem pragmatic to most but what I’m currently going with. Have everything to get started but UV-C. Still trying to figure that out.

Feel free to point out any issues. Key is processing large groups of fish with least amount of effort including chance of salinity concerns such as trying to run that lower than needed or overdosing medications or the time consuming process with TTM.

Bare bottom tanks (especially with early morning, daily siphoning of the bottom) will give MUCH better results than just using micron filtration in a standard aquarium. I'm not quite sure how the UG filter will operate in a bare tank though? If the sparger pipes pick up tomonts off the bottom (and pass them through the micron filter) before they release tomites, that could be a great benefit.

Pre-filtering is a very important aspect for micron filtration - getting the big stuff out before it enters the micron filter will increase the throughput and reduce the dwell time. I once messed around with "cold sterilization" for small QT - and it became immediately apparent that pre filtering was required - like a tertiary system: 100 micron to 25 micron to 10. I still saw undesirable flow reduction over a reasonable time.

Visualize that undergravel filter as nothing more then a large surface area funnel feeding a single riser where the tubing from the FX drapes over it thereby 100% of the tank volume must go through the undergravel plate and drawn into the canister then scrubber down to 10 microns with UV-C the final path before reentering the tank. Since cartridge filtration aren’t 100% at rated micron that UV-C should finish that pass. More effective it is the less passes needed.

The key with this process being any pathogen that is unable to attach is getting processed. Goal is 100% eradication of anything that does get filtered. Peroxide to perhaps assist with remaining and immunity as the backup as I’m a big believer in low exposure being more beneficial than detrimental.

At a minimum. Expectation is preventing transmission and the Spock logic where the many outweigh the needs of the one.

 

[GARRIGA]

Agreed and looking at this a maintenance vs eradication due to how quickly it clogs.

However, for QT I’m going to use bare bottom tank with an undergravel filter and schedule 80 couplings and pipes cut in half to provide shelter yet not impede filter from drawing pathogens into the filter which will have a series of mechanical filtration stepping down before running through UV-C at double wattage than recommended for flow used. Idea is prolong filter clogging at the lower microns and have high enough flow to ensure best capture of most pathogens but not assume 100% captured. In addition add peroxide frequently enough to help assist the process at levels that don’t harm fish including high enough dosages with UV-C turned off to provide a bath like experience then turn UV-C on to decompose remaining peroxide. Salinity high enough to avoid issues yet low enough for fish as I recall being 20 some ppt.

Hoping to only use copper if this fails including any other medications and yet potentially allow natural immunity from low level exposure.

This approach provides biological as I’m trapping detritus and allowing it to decompose and first filter should trap most gross detritus allowing micron filtration extended time before needing to swap cartridges. Rather do that than TTM hassle or having to monitor copper levels.

20g tank plus undergravel filtered by FX2 with layers of different size sponges to capture large particles before running through two lower microns cartridges then appropriate sized UV-C which could also double as partially heating the tank if large enough. Seems expensive and convoluted but QT fish are very expensive and not everything I’m seeking can survive copper treatment plus time is money.

Once POC confirmed this can be upsized to 40g cubes or larger allowing onetime purchase of large group of fish and can setup a few if needed including separate for CUC and corals absent the peroxide, if needed. Still not sure how peroxide affects inverts.

Not going to seem pragmatic to most but what I’m currently going with. Have everything to get started but UV-C. Still trying to figure that out.

Feel free to point out any issues. Key is processing large groups of fish with least amount of effort including chance of salinity concerns such as trying to run that lower than needed or overdosing medications or the time consuming process with TTM.

Bare bottom tanks (especially with early morning, daily siphoning of the bottom) will give MUCH better results than just using micron filtration in a standard aquarium. I'm not quite sure how the UG filter will operate in a bare tank though? If the sparger pipes pick up tomonts off the bottom (and pass them through the micron filter) before they release tomites, that could be a great benefit.

Pre-filtering is a very important aspect for micron filtration - getting the big stuff out before it enters the micron filter will increase the throughput and reduce the dwell time. I once messed around with "cold sterilization" for small QT - and it became immediately apparent that pre filtering was required - like a tertiary system: 100 micron to 25 micron to 10. I still saw undesirable flow reduction over a reasonable time.

As to 100 to 10 micron filter. Why I’m starting with a canister and sponge filters inside from coarse to finest that don’t quickly clog. Noticed with canisters there’s always that mulm that collects inside and perhaps then followed by 75-25 micron depth filter then 10 micron cartridge before UV-C. It’s a test tank therefore could always add that 100 or larger between FX canister and Big Blue canisters. All depends how effective that FX is at reducing sediment size and another reason to go over size on the canister as it likely goes the duration of QT before servicing.

Two other needs being bottle of bacteria to get biological going quickly. Fritz Turbo at 5x dosage then post QT either replace the water and let it sit or run peroxide at 35% for a couple of hours or longer then turn the UV-C and decompose it.

Rinse. Repeat. Stress free QT

One last point. Test will be conducted with black mollies plus introduce ich infested then later velvet. Not to confirm it treats the infected. Confirm the infected can’t infect the rest. Were the peroxide baths able to also treat the infected. That’s gravy.