Is DSB crash just a myth?

[StatelineReefer]

Back in the before-knowledge times, DSBs were run straight sand to the glass, 6-8 inches deep, with no sand stirring organisms. It created a beautiful anoxic zone where nitrate could be reduced to free nitrogen in bacteria.

THE Ron Shimek once wrote an astounding article about how those deep sand beds were misused, most of the life that permitted them either dying off for lack of nutrition or removed for being unsightly, or worse, being labelled as a predator (poor sad flushed fireworms everywhere). You see, these deep sand beds were only supposed to be HALF anoxic, with the upper half being stirred and fluidized.

This led to dead sand beds with a much thicker anoxic layer. DSBs that had this 'greater dead zone' would tend to accumulate hydrogen sulfide as part of the respiration process of anoxic bacteria, and not all of it being the denitrifying kind.

Killer Sand Beds were more prevalent with the hybrid Jaubert/DSB method.

All of it was intended to reduce aquarium maintenance.

It's really easy to maintain an empty aquarium, so I guess they succeeded?

 

[schooncw]

I don't have what I would consider a DSB - it's about 2in's maybe a hair more. After seeing a recent BRS video about taking care of sand and vacuuming it I decided to give it a vacuum. In my tank I have a pretty decent size clean up crew including plenty of snails to help keep my sand "clean" so I thought it would be pretty 'clean' - I'll be honest what came out of my sand was troubling to say the least. The water was black - and the smell was repulsive. Doesn't mean it would have caused my tank to crash but I thought I would just chime in on this post as it might be somewhat good to know.

That is NOT a DSB

 

[schooncw]

Many "blame" their DSB's for the tank crashing but they are not setting it up properly. Please read this short article by Shimek.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

 

[OrionN]

......
Thousands of hobbyists that have failed without a DSB, can't blame the DSB for their failure.

This is so true. Plus many people with a very successful tank with DSB, including some of the tank that have been around for ever.

 

[brandon429]

The hobby has had twenty years to refine and implement dsb science into something consistent, it cannot, no matter how you build them.


Since dsbs don't work for more than a percentage, our hobby subs in:

Ats scrubbers
Nopox
Sludge digester bac mixes
Bio Pellets
Carbon dosing
Refugiums with even more sand
Bare bottom
Roller mats, to export vs store detritus
Coil denitrators

All those are to address gaps in execution ability of a successful dsb.


Of the aquariums that are able to stay in one home for decades, no moving, even a large portion of those endure headache level invasions or soft crashes (uncontrollable invasions from X) as a sandbed/ plenum or not
ages. Bare bottom and high access systems are repeatable by the masses for no eutrophication outcomes.


Anyone who has ran biological oxygen demand tests in a lab can see the command from six pounds of heterotrophs mixed in a mud bed. If your home gets power outages frequently, a dsb is an added liability even if it's the~20% that reduce nitrate vs produce it and require purchase offsets


In no way does my rant neutralize outliers. There are wonderful balanced old beds and with a set of children's water colors Bob Ross could make a fantastic forest. The problem with dsbs is repeatability among a hundred builders even if they follow rules for design

What wins in the hobby is consistent outcome repeatability


Someone should make a resurgence for sandbeds, make a new written guide and get it out there for work thread testing

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B

What?

I am hardly the expert on DSBs. I personally would never install one even though I know there arer at least a few people with old DSB tanks.

To me, they make no sense. I feel that in a few years the grains of sand will be so compacted that the DSB is inert. It won't release anything or do anything. If you drilled a hole in such a tank, I doubt water would leak out (Don't do this in your tank)

I also feel that the bottom of a tank is the largest area we could use to grow not only bacteria. but pods, worms and other creatures that form the food web and the beginning of water purification.

My own reverse UG filter which is infused with oxygen is absolutely loaded with life including multitudes of tiny tube worms and other filter feeding animals.

I feed my tank frozen foods with a lot of clams, clams exude juice which feeds corals but the excess goes to these filter feeders which acts as a buffer for water conditions.

An old DSB will perform no such function because it is just a clogged mass of dead bacteria and mulm.

I know all about Dr Schmeck's theory and was here when he came up with it. He is the same age as me and we started in the hobby the same year.

The theory that the worms will burry down and allow water in is flawed. Worms need oxygen so won't go down there, why would they?

The hobby has had twenty years to refine and implement dsb science into something consistent, it cannot, no matter how you build them.

 

[brandon429]

Hey that's a neat point, nice

 

[OrionN]

I have a deep sand bed and my tank is doing just fine. Why is it that when a bare bottom tank that is not doing well, it is because of a numbers of reasons, but when a tank with DSB not doing well then it is because of the DSB? There are a numbers of reason why a tank not doing well, bare bottom or with DSB.
Double standard don't you think? There are a numbers of cause for a tank not doing well that does not have anything to do with a DSB.
I value diversity in my tank. A proper DSB have a huge amount of life in it. The more life, the more stable the ecosystem. It is very true that disruption of power is can be a disaster for DSB. Same with a bare bottom tank, but DSB will succumb to this disaster quicker.
@Paul B
Nature have a way of fill in all the available spaces and niches. Just because there are hypoxic area under the sand does not mean that animals cannot live there. Hypoxic sand area is very far from lifeless. You don't have a DSB so you would not know, but if you do have DSB you will see that there are tunnels all the way to the bottom of the sand where the condition is hypoxic. Looking at the worms and crustaceans living in these tunnels, you will see that they have movements that does pump water down these tunnels.
I live near Corpus Christi Bay. I periodically take a shovel and get a shovel full of the sand and mud along the waterway and on the surf area of the beach in the summer and add this into my tank. This really diversify the fauna in my tank. None of my tank ever have measurable nitrate in the water.

 

[brandon429]

How to replace sand bed?

Hey all, looking into ICP test but pretty sure the sand in my reef tank is play sand and the silicates may be part of my ongoing issues. How would you go about replacing the sand bed? Just shop vac it out and dump the new sand in? Do half the tank and then the other half later? How long to...

www.reef2reef.com

when it’s time to mess with sand, you do it surgically if you want to not kill your reef, a work example thread.
If they choose a less surgical method, say vacuuming out the sand while it’s all full, that too will be interesting to watch.

i made my case with examples on how to proceed. big Job on the line, 200 gallons + reef animals substrate swap isn’t small potato if it was my reef I wouldn’t put a bed back, too big of a tank to clean it properly.

 

[BobbyOtto]

A simple search on reef central will show it's not a myth. Not to sound harsh but with a little critical thought couldn't you deduce that once the surface area of sand saturated with organic waste it would start to create byproducts like methane due to the bacteria not being able to keep up with the decaying organic waste...

 

[NanoDJS]

A lot more people have tank crashes restarts reboots failures and frag loss without sand in modern times it's a proportional thing. Back when the only way to keep a reef tank was with sand and live rock some people crashed their tanks blamed it on the sand .Now they blame it on other things , Vibrant or Fritz RPM for example which is not the problem. They were also not stirring the sand bed most likely and don't get exactly how it's supposed to work. With that being said I have been running sand for 30 years and only rarely run bare bottom (it's too cold lolz) which never has the same results for me .Personally I chalk this up to urban legend as far as I'm concerned the problems are with the end user not the DSB. My 2c

 

[jda]

The stuff that settles in a sand bed is inert. It has been exhausted of nutrients to support live before it settles down in there... fish, microfauna, bacteria have all had their way with it. This is why you have never heard of methane being produced by a fish tank - ever. The stuff needs to come out periodically since I do think that it gums up the works, but there is nothing sinister happening.

Most people would just rather blame something that accept the reality that they did something wrong. This used to be a thing with Calcium Reactors too before some diligent folks got critical with every post about "Ca Rx Crashed my Tank" and pointed out that the crash was something else.

Again, I have never seen a single occasion where a well-done sand bed caused any harm. ...just when they pick up the slack for a hobbyist lacking husbandry and then can no longer do it anymore.

 

[beaslbob]

What?

I am hardly the expert on DSBs. I personally would never install one even though I know there arer at least a few people with old DSB tanks.

To me, they make no sense. I feel that in a few years the grains of sand will be so compacted that the DSB is inert. It won't release anything or do anything. If you drilled a hole in such a tank, I doubt water would leak out (Don't do this in your tank)

I also feel that the bottom of a tank is the largest area we could use to grow not only bacteria. but pods, worms and other creatures that form the food web and the beginning of water purification.

My own reverse UG filter which is infused with oxygen is absolutely loaded with life including multitudes of tiny tube worms and other filter feeding animals.

I feed my tank frozen foods with a lot of clams, clams exude juice which feeds corals but the excess goes to these filter feeders which acts as a buffer for water conditions.

An old DSB will perform no such function because it is just a clogged mass of dead bacteria and mulm.

I know all about Dr Schmeck's theory and was here when he came up with it. He is the same age as me and we started in the hobby the same year.

The theory that the worms will burry down and allow water in is flawed. Worms need oxygen so won't go down there, why would they?

you go Paul!

 

[jda]

I also do not believe that Dr. Ron nailed it. The dude did a lot of good work, but being an advocate for "never touching" a sand bed was not some of it, IMO. The mass of inert material that settles into the sand bed needs to go. It gums up the works. Starting in about year four, I vacuum small sections of the sandbed every few months so that I get it all in a year. You want to disturb so little that the other oxic and anoxic areas still function. The slowness allows the freshly vacuumed areas to repopulate again. When you do this, you see the conchs and cucumbers really stay in this area for a while.

I also do not understand why worms would go too deep where there is nothing down there to eat.

I have also found that three inches of sand does a wonderful job of denitrification and has all of the benefits of microfauna and life, places for wrasses to sleep and denitrification and all of that.

I do have to replace sand over the years since it does melt a bit with the lower pH down in there where the bacteria is working.

I would never have a tank without 3" of sand. I just love that it keeps my fish diseases at bay, keeps N at .1 to .3 (perfect for me) and I love me some wrasses.

 

[Super Fly]

@ca1ore

I also do not believe that Dr. Ron nailed it. The dude did a lot of good work, but being an advocate for "never touching" a sand bed was not some of it, IMO. The mass of inert material that settles into the sand bed needs to go. It gums up the works. Starting in about year four, I vacuum small sections of the sandbed every few months so that I get it all in a year. You want to disturb so little that the other oxic and anoxic areas still function. The slowness allows the freshly vacuumed areas to repopulate again. When you do this, you see the conchs and cucumbers really stay in this area for a while.

I also do not understand why worms would go too deep where there is nothing down there to eat.

I have also found that three inches of sand does a wonderful job of denitrification and has all of the benefits of microfauna and life, places for wrasses to sleep and denitrification and all of that.

I do have to replace sand over the years since it does melt a bit with the lower pH down in there where the bacteria is working.

I would never have a tank without 3" of sand. I just love that it keeps my fish diseases at bay, keeps N at .1 to .3 (perfect for me) and I love me some wrasses.

when u vacuum small sections, how deep do u vacuum?

 

[Paul B]

I live near Corpus Christi Bay. I periodically take a shovel and get a shovel full of the sand and mud along the waterway and on the surf area of the beach in the summer and add this into my tank. This really diversify the fauna in my tank. None of my tank ever have measurable nitrate in the water.

This I love and have always done it myself. The last DSB I ran was many years ago in a local fiddler crab tank. It was fine but I only kept it a few years. I think of running tanks in tens of years, not 5 or 10.

Like I said, I think a DSB may not crash a tank, I just feel they are more of less inert and not doing anything. But thats just me.

 

[jda]

@ca1ore
when u vacuum small sections, how deep do u vacuum?

All the way down... like 8-10 percent a month or 25 percent a quarter. Lots of gunk comes out and there is time to let the oxic and anoxic regions get set again.

 

[brandon429]

it would help to collect that extract, let it sit for about three hours still to separate, decant off the top water and then aerate the sample and keep it topped off for about two days/nitrate activation if any nutrient is left. measure the sample with a decently-working nitrate test. handy to see results

 

[Uncle99]

Hey that looks great, how in the world is it all so clean after 3x decades, like the corners of the glass/sand interface and no coralline on back wall? the 2000s alone/ metal halide and vho phase should have opaqued and left skeletons? I can see it scraped up front though, that is a coralline trail yep

5th upgrade, this method I have transferred from each tank before.
This current upgrade, now 4 years old.

 

[brandon429]

it looks great and all the hardscape materials look aged w hints of coralline big corals, really a sharp sharp reef