Is it feasible to remove the skimmer? Could it solve the decades-long problem of nutrient accumulation?

[jda]

I know of the study that you post about growth rates increasing with higher P concentration with one coral - you need a login for the link that you posted, but I have read it before. I also know of dozens of others that clearly show that calcification slows as N and P get higher. This is super easy to see with even coralline in a tank where is will absolutely take off and be a menace with near NSW N and P levels and stonies do so as well. As much as people like to talk academically with that study, I challenge you to get the same results that I do with higher N and P level, or better - nobody has been able to yet. If you want to argue that it is superior lighting, or even the air here in Colorado, then fine, but even with the lights in Colorado, it is real.

Heck, people use N and P to slow down their calcification rates so that they don't get burnt tips - most of them do not know it, but if you lower N and P to near NSW levels, keep alk high then the skeleton will grow faster than the organic tissue will.

I have never said that you need a skimmer. I am just saying that you need to somehow do the work. If you think that you can do all of what you post and get the same results, then that is awesome. I will be watching. Nobody else has done it yet - I struggle even with multiple skimmer and algae to keep residuals from climbing and I am NOT cutting back feeding since I think that it is the most important thing that people can do. Even if you can get all of this to work, it seems like a lot of work that I am not interested in performing, but I sure want to read about it and learn from it - similar to DSR where those folks have great results and I loved learning about it, but the cost and work was more than I wanted when a $9 bag of salt and 3-5 minutes every 2-4 weeks was way cheaper and easier.

 

[fragit]

So my skimmer was removed 3 weeks ago. I have a roller mat and 40 breeder fuge, 13 fish in a 120. Still no detectable nitrates on Hanna High Range. I’ve been feeding the equivalent of at least 2-3 various Hikari cubes daily.

 

[jda]

Why do you want detectable nitrates? You having an issue with diatoms, cyano or something?

 

[fragit]

Why do you want detectable nitrates? You having an issue with diatoms, cyano or something?

Well my SPS were getting pale. Since turning the skimmer off they have colored back up. I had 5 choices… 1) feed more which I am, 2)turn down fuge light I did, 3) remove roller mat, no thanks, 4) reduce skimming, 5) dose nitrate. I may get a wifi outlet for the skimmer and put it on a timer.

 

[jda]

So your supposition is that your corals are low on nitrogen and that you are going to give them Nitrate to get it?

I really suggest that you read up on how coral prefer to get nitrogen and not pay attention to the online or message board drivel about nitrate being a good way. Even though it is doubtful that your corals are deficient in nitrogen, the best way to get it to them is with ammonia/ammonium from the fish waste. Not all corals can use nitrate to get nitrogen and those that can have to expend an enormous amount of energy to convert it back - energy that often non-healthy corals do not have.

If your color increase has coincided with feeding more, that is likely what did it and not turning your skimmer off or the rest. There is a lot of real science out there about this type of stuff. Available building blocks in ammonia/ammonium > residual nitrate and phosphate. There are photos of my acropora in my rebuild thread with 1-3 ppb of residual P and .1 residual N (need ICP to even detect it) - there is a ton of available building blocks since I feed a lot.

 

[fragit]

So your supposition is that your corals are low on nitrogen and that you are going to give them Nitrate to get it?

I really suggest that you read up on how coral prefer to get nitrogen and not pay attention to the online or message board drivel about nitrate being a good way. Even though it is doubtful that your corals are deficient in nitrogen, the best way to get it to them is with ammonia/ammonium from the fish waste. Not all corals can use nitrate to get nitrogen and those that can have to expend an enormous amount of energy to convert it back - energy that often non-healthy corals do not have.

If your color increase has coincided with feeding more, that is likely what did it and not turning your skimmer off or the rest. There is a lot of real science out there about this type of stuff. Available building blocks in ammonia/ammonium > residual nitrate and phosphate. There are photos of my acropora in my rebuild thread with 1-3 ppb of residual P and .1 residual N (need ICP to even detect it) - there is a ton of available building blocks since I feed a lot.

So… your recommendation is to keep feeding the way I am, continue to dose RedSea AB+ and put my skimmer back on line?

 

[jda]

I am a heavy import and heavy export guy. Available > residual. Feed a lot and skim/fuge/export a lot with lower residuals. Auto feeder with pellets is a good way to feed a lot without having to be there.

I don't dose anything beyond water changes and what my CaRx provides, so I have no opinion of Red Sea or any other supplements in a bottle. Sorry.

 

[fragit]

I am a heavy import and heavy export guy. Available > residual. Feed a lot and skim/fuge/export a lot with lower residuals. Auto feeder with pellets is a good way to feed a lot without having to be there.

I don't dose anything beyond water changes and what my CaRx provides, so I have no opinion of Red Sea or any other supplements in a bottle. Sorry.

Exactly heavy in heavy out. So what do YOU do when your out is more than in? Just feed more?

 

[jda]

It never gets there.

The anoxic bacteria that turn nitrate into nitrogen gas (the last step of the nitrogen cycle), will multiply to equilibrium and always leave a trace of nitrate behind to keep the ecosystem moving forward. I don't care how low it gets since there is not really much purpose for it anyway for me.

I have a fuge too where I remove 5+ gallons of chaeto every few weeks, or sooner. This stuff will slow down too if N and/or P (or iron) get lower and it just figures it's self out. My P can climb a bit of I don't change water or dose iron, don't prune the chaeto, etc. - dense chateo will slow down, but then the stuff catches back up in a few weeks and the numbers are back down again.

Only dosing chemicals/media would get me too low, but I have never found natural means to be able to do it. I don't use those chemicals or media without a really good acute reason.

 

[fragit]

It never gets there.

The anoxic bacteria that turn nitrate into nitrogen gas (the last step of the nitrogen cycle), will multiply to equilibrium and always leave a trace of nitrate behind to keep the ecosystem moving forward. I don't care how low it gets since there is not really much purpose for it anyway for me.

I have a fuge too where I remove 5+ gallons of chaeto every few weeks, or sooner. This stuff will slow down too if N and/or P (or iron) get lower and it just figures it's self out. My P can climb a bit of I don't change water or dose iron, don't prune the chaeto, etc. - dense chateo will slow down, but then the stuff catches back up in a few weeks and the numbers are back down again.

Only dosing chemicals/media would get me too low, but I have never found natural means to be able to do it. I don't use those chemicals or media without a really good acute reason.

So back to the skimmer question which is why I started to follow this thread. Is a skimmer needed.. I don’t know. That’s what I’ve always thought, was taught and have done. My sump is in the basement and DT on the first floor. Between that and all the surface agitation I’m not really concerned about oxygenation or should I be. Why use the skimmer then if my corals need food and my roller mat pulls out so much waste, and my fuge (I use Caulerpa instead of Chaeto) takes care of a lot of dissolved waste as well as consuming CO2 at night. Why then bother with a skimmer? Is your suggestion to run my skimmer anyway?

 

[jda]

I run multiple skimmers on my tanks. I cannot export enough without them. The N will get consumed, but the P builds up. I also don't know how I would export toxic metals (from the food)

 

[fragit]

I run multiple skimmers on my tanks. I cannot export enough without them. The N will get consumed, but the P builds up. I also don't know how I would export toxic metals (from the food)

I have always used a skimmer also never multiples. And it is a tool to reduce waste dissolved in the water. It can’t tell if that waste is good or bad. It seems my tank runs in a similar way to yours in that N is being consumed (I can’t detect it but feed like Well it seems my tank runs in a similar way N is being consumed (I can’t detect it but feed like crazy) and P rises even with skimming. So I’m also running rowaphos in an effort to reduce P and control algea in my DT. You still didn’t answer my question though. Are you saying I should run a skimmer no matter what?) and P rises even with skimming. So I’m also running rowaphos in an effort to reduce P and control algea in my DT. You still didn’t answer my question though. Are you saying I should run a skimmer no matter what?

 

[jda]

I run my skimmers all of the time no matter what. They are just too valuable to me.

 

[fragit]

I run my skimmers all of the time no matter what. They are just too valuable to me.

I put it back online today

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Those who do not run a skimmer, what would be a good reason why they should use one?

Aeration.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So back to the skimmer question which is why I started to follow this thread. Is a skimmer needed.. I don’t know.

Needed? Of course not. Just a single example of an acceptable reef aquarium without one is proof they are not "needed".

A better question is if they are beneficial to most reef tanks.

IMO, that answer is yes, but there may be scenarios where a tank may be better off without one.

Personally, I'd use one for aeration alone, even if it did nothing else useful.

 

[Reefology1]

Aeration.

so if my skimmer broke down today, @Randy Holmes-Farley you recommend purchasing another (expensive) skimmer for aeration instead of an air pump?

A better question is if they are beneficial to most reef tanks.

IMO, that answer is yes, but there may be scenarios where a tank may be better off without one.

Personally, I'd use one for aeration alone, even if it did nothing else useful.

Hypothetically, can you please give an example of a scenario where a tank may be better off without one?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so if my skimmer broke down today, @Randy Holmes-Farley you recommend purchasing another (expensive) skimmer for aeration instead of an air pump?


Hypothetically, can you please give an example of a scenario where a tank may be better off without one?

Not sure how you would employ an air pump without having salt spray issues, but yes, skimmers are very good.

Scenarios where skimming might be less desirable is if the tank is focused on filter feeders and you are trying to keep suspended particulates in the water. Or maybe if nutrients are tooo low and you do not want to dose nutrients or feed more.

 

[jda]

As a general question, what long-term systems have you seen that are skimmerless that you wish to emulate where you are also willing to do all of the things that the hobbyist does to not run a skimmer? Is there any? Most of what I see are need to be thrown out (for me), like a few months of not running a skimmer and "loving it," tanks with things that I do not wish to keep (like filter feeders) or people working harder than I want to work. Most of the people who decide to stop their skimmer end up basing their decision on short-lived experiences, "science" that is not really science and more supposition that something "might" work (like this thread) or they don't read the fine print and know what else they have to do to maintain.

When I say long term, I am talking like 3-5 years, not a few months or even a year. My sump cracked and I went without surface skim and skimmers for 4 months while I ordered glass and built another and everything seemed fine, but I know that 4 months is a heartbeat for my tank.

You can probably find a tank or two that is like what I am describing that you wish to emulate. If you do, then cool. However, ask yourself if these people are the rule or the exception... and which do you want to be. Some thrive and will work harder to be the exception, but most will not be able to duplicate the results. If you do decide to emulate a tank, or two, go all in and don't pick and choose since the other things that they do are probably just as large of a piece as removing the skimmer was.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I typically do not chime in on these types of things, but feel that since most of the discussion is around SPS tanks, I want to share my experiences with Macro, Nems, NPS, LPS and SPS.

I have a 500+ gallon system in my fish barn and a 300 or so in my house. I wont count all of the nano tanks, as they are very species specific for easy to care for stuff.

In my fish barn, the tanks consist of a mangrove lagoon with tons of macro, softies, gorgs (NPS and Photosynthetic), SPS, LPS, and ton of nems (NPS and Photosynthetic) and a reef tank with all previous items, excluding macro. These tanks are the same system via the sump.

I have a very heavy bioload of fish, feed a ton, but export very heavily. I use 2x skimmers, mangrove tank has loads of macro and the sump still has a massive cheato fuge. Plus I do AWC of about 15 gallons a day. My N is around 2-5 and p is around .03 consistently. One would think that I would keep it a little higher, as it would aid in me growing macros. I do not, as I have found that growth slows down with anything higher. Now for the oddity. I dose Austins ammonia to the tank. Yes, ammonia. No issues with fish, as I do not dose enough to hurt the fish, but dose enough to make it available. By doing this, even my nems seem to benefit from it and grow like weeds. The SPS grows so fast that I cannot get rid of the stag frags fast enough and sometimes use them in my CaRX in the house. Sad, I know. But back to the ammonia. If this was overdosed, 2 things would happen and one will happen even when dosing a little. Overdosing would harm the life in the tank. Trace dosing still has some ammonia that is not taken up, this then becomes nitrite, then nitrate and so on. If I did not export heavily, the N would build. Add that to all of the food I feed multiple times a day and it just builds up.

I have also tried to run this setup with higher n and p and stuff grew, but did not look as healthy. My skimmers are a big part of that. Even the NPS items do very well. They like food when they want food, not dirty water. Look at carnation corals for example. They are in some of the cleanest water, but get a constant supply of fine particulates washed across them on a regular basis. They snatch up all they can and then stop grabbing food. In our glass boxes, the only way to acheive that is to export very heavy and skim the crap out of the water. If we do not do that, then it build up, decomposes, raises n/p and things start to go south.

I am not saying this way is right or wrong, that a skimmer is or is not needed. I am just saying with over 100 nems, tons of acros, tons of LPS, nps corals and all of the other stuff I have, skimmers are a must. Even in my tank in the house, all of the above applies. I do nbot dose ammonia in the tank, but have a massive bioload of tangs and one would call the tank over stocked with all the tons of small fish in there.

I will also say that I agree with @jda, as it seems the best thing for all items in my tanks is fish poop and other waste, just in moderation and not heavily concentrated. So without skimming very heavy, using 2 very large skimmers, my critters would not thrive. Heck, even with 6500k straight grow bulbs over the mangrove lagoon, coralline is an annoyance lol.

Hope this provides another point of view on this subject and how it relates to all other types of life we keep in our glass boxes.