Is it ok to supplement the 10X flow through refu using an addt'l pump from last chamber to first?

[Jaculus]

I currently have a VERY heavily stocked 200 DD tank with a 125Gal Basement refugium. Obviously with having a large refugium and GFO, Carbon, Bio Pellets and LOTS of macro algae growth I have not had any large issues with NO4 or PO3. I am currently using the typical 2 Part BRS dosing with a DOS/DDR. That is working well and has for 4 or 5 years.
Now to the question though, I am considering the Triton method now and updating my Apex from the Classic Gold to the new controller and getting on board with all the new Apex Ca/Alk/MG tester coming. Thanks to a small group setting chat with Tom Dachille of Neptune at my local LFS last night (Ocean Rift Aquatics) I am now almost 100% on board with all of this.

Here is my question that I should have asked last night. Since my sump is a basement one and I have approx 25' of head pressure (currently running a Pan World 200PS) it is nearly impossible to get the desired 10x per hour flow through the sump/refugium and Display Tank. If I was to guess I am probably at 5 to 6 times. (My first purchase will be to get the FMK so I can get a better idea of the true flow.) My question is this, can I get away with 5 or 6X through the sump back up to the DT or can I simply setup a DC high volume pump to re-circulate water from the last chamber in the sump back to the first chamber to effectively get to 10X through the refugium even though I would still only be getting 5X back through the display tank?

 

[Jaculus]

I originally thought having a separate thread to discuss this rather then the full one https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/guide-to-the-triton-method.299187/page-11#post-4176439 would be best. Here is my quick drawing that sums up my thoughts though.

 

[JoshH]

I would think upgrading your return is your best bet TBH... not that its a cheap option... with the recirculation method you're still technically only getting half the desired turnover of the display as the water isn't coming from the display.

 

[Jaculus]

Thanks,the issue though is that it's so cost prohibitive to try to get 2000gph into a display tank with 15' of return line from a basement to a display tank up one floor. The power consumption of the PanWorld 200PS I am using now hurts enough. Also, the heat produced by these larger AC pumps is often a consideration. While I can make small adjustments to the pump plumbing etc that would still not get close to the desired 10X.

Ryan at BRS replied to the original post with

The turn over is really just related to heating and filtering the water. I don't think 10x return is going to keep much of anything in suspension in the tank or sump, it just isn't that high velocity. You probably only need more than a few times turn over to heat it. Filter stocks will obviously have better performance with doubling or tripling the passes. The Carbon and GFO or other filter media will almost certainly achieve their daily goals in a just a few passes an hour as well. Since the skimmer has a fixed flow rate I guess I don't see incredible gains by increasing the flow rate through that chamber as well. I am sure that getting 10x would increase performance on all of these elements but by what degree and how much are you willing to spend?

On a Triton system, they don't always say why they do things a certain way so we can only guess but I can see some potential benefits to a true 10x. First, with Triton I think we are transitioning from the fuge being a supportive filter to being the primary filter, not only is the fuge responsible for a majority of the nitrate and phosphate reduction there is a very reasonable chance the algae may actually prefer ammonia as it's nitrogen source. So this is a critical filter and unlike media reactors and skimmers which often have fixed flow rates regardless of sump turn over, the return pump and overflows are the feed to this important filter. So I would think of it as passing the system water volume through a specific filter 10x an hour which is a real thing rather than just 5-10x sump turn over which is a guideline without out much thought to the system or equipment in it.

I think in some ways this gets to the heart of why some reefers have success with "methods" and others don't. So often each component of the method gets debated and the individual reefer ends up passing on elements or adjusting it in a variety of ways. The net result is no longer the Triton method, it's "Ryan's method". For this discussion, I would say if you decided to change the method to your own desires and run 3x turn over and don't have the desired success I would certainly consider following the actual 10x recommendation for the primary filter before determining if the method works for you. It might be that 10x turn over is not possible and you just need to do your best and adjust or try something different. There are a lot of system designs and methods that work

I am going to try this. While my setup will not be any scientific test since I have no control subject I suspect that others have accomplished the Triton effect by doing this similar approach by having 10X turnover in the Refugium section while only having 3 to 5 times of that going through the display tank. I was hoping that someone would have some points or direction on how they accomplished this and if there really were definite or realized disadvantages to doing it this way.

 

[JoshH]

Looks like you might be the true Tester of this theory then, I hope it does work for you and I agree in your situation youre kind of stuck between a rock and a rather costly hard place.

 

[Jaculus]

Well, not a tester but I will obviously update with my results. Still looking for anyone else that has TRIED running only a portion of their flow through the DT with the rest recirculating through the Refugium

 

[widarecu]

Well, not a tester but I will obviously update with my results. Still looking for anyone else that has TRIED running only a portion of their flow through the DT with the rest recirculating through the Refugium

How did you go with your method? I’m running into the same issue so keen to understand your results

 

[Julian@Triton]

If you are running a recirculating loop then, as Ryan said, you can make a decision on the success based on the results.

Ehsan confirmed that the Full TRITON Method relies upon x10 actual DT water volume through the sump. This is accepting of the small reduction in flow when running the pump in a sump directly below the tank.

One of the major benefits of having a refugium is as an additional food source. If you are halving the amount of water running from the sump to the DT then you are effectively halving the amount of food that it can supply your corals. Something to keep in mind.

Is it possible to run another pump of the same size up to the DT using a parallel plumbing line?

 

[widarecu]

So I made a quick change running a 1 inch hose and bypassed the original plumbing, flow improved from about 500-600gph to about 900gph but now the problem is the drain plumbing, it’s not big enough to handle the increased flow.

What I ended up doing was to use the original return line as drain as well which helps with the volume but then I’m running with some noice issues.

your idea of running parallel plumbing is great but the drains won’t be able to handle it

 

[Breadman03]

So I made a quick change running a 1 inch hose and bypassed the original plumbing, flow improved from about 500-600gph to about 900gph but now the problem is the drain plumbing, it’s not big enough to handle the increased flow.

What I ended up doing was to use the original return line as drain as well which helps with the volume but then I’m running with some noice issues.

your idea of running parallel plumbing is great but the drains won’t be able to handle it

BeanAnimal or Herbie style drains may be a good solution for you.

 

[CMO]

Here are the results of a full Triton tank running at 3.6x turnover (my return flow measured by a Neptune flow meter is right at 600 gph). I do run a gyre in my sump to keep detritus suspended and have another 300 gph of recirculating flow in my sump for reactors and chiller but the main turnover is only 3.6x or about 5.5x including recirculating flow. My display is 165g and this entire tank was grown from frags with full Triton from day 1 at these turnover levels.

 

[widarecu]

BeanAnimal or Herbie style drains may be a good solution for you.

The RSR 750 already comes with the Herbie style but it is not enough with the current plumbing, fully opened it reaches the emergency pipe. The potential option is to cancel the return pipe and transform it into Bean Animal instead, that could work but will need to get a new pipe/hose coming from behind into the tank, not too clean :/

 

[widarecu]

Here are the results of a full Triton tank running at 3.6x turnover (my return flow is right at 600 gph). I do run a gyre in my sump to keep detritus suspended and have another 300 gph of recirculating flow in my sump for reactors and chiller but the main turnover is only 3.6x or about 5.5x including recirculating flow. My display is 165g and this entire tank was grown from frags with full Triton from day 1 at these turnover levels.

That's a really good evidence that it can work ... beautiful tank btw, congratulations!!!!

How old since you have it running? 100% Triton or are you doing something else to help keep parameters on check? What are your nitrate and phosphate readings? Are you running any water changes??? ..... sorry for so many questions at once but you just gave me some hope

 

[CMO]

That's a really good evidence that it can work ... beautiful tank btw, congratulations!!!!

How old since you have it running? 100% Triton or are you doing something else to help keep parameters on check? What are your nitrate and phosphate readings? Are you running any water changes??? ..... sorry for so many questions at once but you just gave me some hope

Thanks! This tank has been running since January of 2018 so just under 2 years old. Nitrate I dose to maintain about 1-5ppm (it is undetectable without dosing otherwise and corals get pale). PO4 is generally in the range of .02-.10 ppm.

I've only done two 20% water changes on this tank to date related to chemiclean treatments earlier on but there just hasn't been any need for water changes otherwise as things have tracked really nice (I've needed to add elements here and there but overall things have stayed in range - mostly Strontium and Iodine). I run carbon 24/7 (changed out monthly) to keep contaminants down in a no water change environment.

I will say however, that had I followed the ICP results recommendations I would have done a whole lot more water changes on this tank unnecessarily. While I really like ICP testing, it isn't perfect and I've had my share of false results that triggered water change recommendations. I feel pretty confident in reading my tank so don't over react to ICP results unless something is really off and I find a culprit with my tank or corals confirm something is off. If I get an ICP test I'm unsure about I'll send another one in for confirmation a few weeks or month later to confirm the same result before getting crazy with the 6x water change recommendations. Nearly always I find that the results indicate things have gone back to normal...

Oh and my fuge is only about 6% of my DT so pretty undersized compared to Triton recommendations. I have a pretty heavy fish stock including a large eel with no nutrient issues at all (and I feed a ton 3x per day). The Triton method is pretty flexible IMO.

 

[widarecu]

Thanks! This tank has been running since January of 2018 so just under 2 years old. Nitrate I dose to maintain about 1-5ppm (it is undetectable without dosing otherwise and corals get pale). PO4 is generally in the range of .02-.10 ppm.

I've only done two 20% water changes on this tank to date related to chemiclean treatments earlier on but there just hasn't been any need for water changes otherwise as things have tracked really nice (I've needed to add elements here and there but overall things have stayed in range - mostly Strontium and Iodine). I run carbon 24/7 (changed out monthly) to keep contaminants down in a no water change environment.

I will say however, that had I followed the ICP results recommendations I would have done a whole lot more water changes on this tank unnecessarily. While I really like ICP testing, it isn't perfect and I've had my share of false results that triggered water change recommendations. I feel pretty confident in reading my tank so don't over react to ICP results unless something is really off and I find a culprit with my tank or corals confirm something is off. If I get an ICP test I'm unsure about I'll send another one in for confirmation a few weeks or month later to confirm the same result before getting crazy with the 6x water change recommendations. Nearly always I find that the results indicate things have gone back to normal...

Oh and my fuge is only about 6% of my DT so pretty undersized compared to Triton recommendations. I have a pretty heavy fish stock including a large eel with no nutrient issues at all (and I feed a ton 3x per day). The Triton method is pretty flexible IMO.

Thanks for the detailed response, results speak by themselves.

I have to agree as well with the ICP testing results, I’m following the same approach as you by waiting for the tank to recover itself without jumping and try to fix it on the spot with chemicals, and so far so good. We seem to have a similar setup so you are giving me some hope the system will work without having to massively modify my sump, I’ll let you know how I went in a few months