Is lava rock reef-safe?

[Fish Fan]

The OP's question revolved around lava rock. Focus

That IS lava rock, as I mentioned.

 

[commod0re]

I don’t even see an argument or an actual point, just wandering, combative reframes and snarky personal jabs directed at whoever replies.

I suppose that’s what I meant by arguing, not in the sense that they are making an argument, rather that they’re actively seeking and creating conflict without adding any value to the discussion

 

[BeanAnimal]

The OP's question revolved around lava rock. Focus

And yet you have smuggled in everything of volcanic origin that you can think of to support your ridiculous attack of Randy’s point and everyone else’s who has tried to make sense of your responses.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I suppose that’s what I meant by arguing, not in the sense that they are making an argument, rather that they’re actively seeking and creating conflict without adding any value to the discussion

Yep, and what an odd hill to plant a flag on, especially predicated solely on what Randy said.

 

[Bear22]

Post #42 of this thread

Thanks. I will say this: Why are the data metrics/samples referenced in this paper way into inland China? Looks to be at least a thousand miles inland. What does that have to do with natural near shore reef systems and lava rock shorelines?

This article doesn't really compute with the discussion in hand in my mind.

 

[Bear22]

I suppose that’s what I meant by arguing, not in the sense that they are making an argument, rather that they’re actively seeking and creating conflict without adding any value to the discussion

No.

I don't just rest on a laurel based on anecdotes or opinions. If the poster states that it is of their opinion then, that's fine.

If a person is going to fall on a sword then at least give some good objective info., on the matter.

If it isn't already, then this should is a life lesson for you and how you interact with people. Because unfortunately in society today the pursuit of truth and facts takes a back seat to tribal lore (man's traditions and what's popular with itchy ears).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks. I will say this: Why are the data metrics/samples referenced in this paper way into inland China? Looks to be at least a thousand miles inland. What does that have to do with natural near shore reef systems and lava rock shorelines?

This article doesn't really compute with the discussion in hand in my mind.

It has nothing to do with lava rock shorelines. It has everything to do with volcanic rock leaching heavy metals and causing environmental tox issues.

Coupled with known tox data from those same heavy metals, that is the type of data I use to express concern of risk.

The hypothesis of concern seems to be supported by folks using lava (in the form of black sand) in reef tanks reportedly detecting elevated heavy metals (linked earlier in the thread),

 

[Fish Fan]

I don't just rest on a laurel based on anecdotes or opinions.

You've literally provided nothing more than anecdotes and opinions, whereas others have offered links and supporting information. You present yourself as the only arbiter knowledge and factual information, as you continue to argue with some of the most experienced and educated members on the forum (not me, of course).

It seems to me that nearly every thread you get involved in deteriorates like this one, with you arguing solely with every other respondent.

What was it that you said in your post previously???

Oh yeah, Hmmmmmmm........

 

[Bear22]

It has nothing to do with lava rock shorelines. It has everything to do with volcanic rock leaching heavy metals and causing environmental tox issues.

Coupled with known tox data from those same heavy metals, that is the type of data I use to express concern of risk.

The hypothesis of concern seems to be supported by folks using lava (in the form of black sand) in reef tanks reportedly detecting elevated heavy metals (linked earlier in the thread),

Well, there a lot of different types of lava rock in terms of composition. Some inert (through people's experience). Some laden with heavy metals 1000 miles inland of mainland China.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well, there a lot of different types of lava rock in terms of composition. Some inert (through people's experience). Some laden with heavy metals 1000 miles inland of mainland China.

That may be, or not. Do you have any evidence supporting the hypothesis that says there are types that leach nothing of concern?

Assuming it is true, how would anyone know whether they have bad ones or not without expensive testing?

Seems like a risk to me.

 

[commod0re]

What part of YMMV did you not understand?

Only reason I’m coming back to this again is because you’ve actually demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that you yourself actually don’t know what YMMV means otherwise you would never have begun arguing with Randy to begin with

If you want beef, learn to grill

 

[Bear22]

That may be, or not. Do you have any evidence supporting the hypothesis that says there are types that leach nothing of concern?

Assuming it is true, how would anyone know whether they have bad ones or not without expensive testing?

Seems like a risk to me.

It could be a risk.

But to carte blanche infer all lava rock is a risk is a bit of a stretch when many aquarists use it.

Not all live rock and dry rock is the same. Do we break it up with a hammer and send bits and pieces off to the lab for testing?

Probably not.

People (including me) make all kinds of assumptions about things in this hobby. Its the nature of the beast

My beef with much of the banter in these forums is all the "he said she said" suppositions that goes on. It doesn't help the hobby or people who are new to the hobby.

Case and point: a commenter in this thread (I have a memory like an elephant) went into a tizzy over using biological bottled products over dropping a dead shrimp into a tank for cycling purposes. So, the dead shrimp worked for this person, and somehow this now makes him the SME with respect to take cycling and he now knows more than the people who are formally trained in microbiology.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It could be a risk.

But to carte blanche infer all lava rock is a risk is a bit of a stretch when many aquarists use it.

Not all live rock and dry rock is the same. Do we break it up with a hammer and send bits and pieces off to the lab for testing?

Probably not.

People (including me) make all kinds of assumptions about things in this hobby. Its the nature of the beast

My beef with much of the banter in these forums is all the "he said she said" suppositions that goes on. It doesn't help the hobby or people who are new to the hobby.

Case and point: a commenter in this thread (I have a memory like an elephant) went into a tizzy over using biological bottled products over dropping a dead shrimp into a tank for cycling purposes. So, the dead shrimp worked for this person, and somehow this now makes him the SME with respect to take cycling and he now knows more than the people who are formally trained in microbiology.

I’ll let you have the last word. I’ve made my point and stand by it. :)

 

[KrisReef]

It could be a risk.

But to carte blanche infer all lava rock is a risk is a bit of a stretch when many aquarists use it.

Not all live rock and dry rock is the same. Do we break it up with a hammer and send bits and pieces off to the lab for testing?

Probably not.

People (including me) make all kinds of assumptions about things in this hobby. Its the nature of the beast

My beef with much of the banter in these forums is all the "he said she said" suppositions that goes on. It doesn't help the hobby or people who are new to the hobby.

Case and point: a commenter in this thread (I have a memory like an elephant) went into a tizzy over using biological bottled products over dropping a dead shrimp into a tank for cycling purposes. So, the dead shrimp worked for this person, and somehow this now makes him the SME with respect to take cycling and he now knows more than the people who are formally trained in microbiology.

Correct.

Edit; Except "tank" may have been mispelled take(sic)? Or auto correct got to you too? I hate this stuff.

 

[Bear22]

I’ll let you have the last word. I’ve made my point and stand by it. :)

No, you given us your opinion ;-)

 

[commod0re]

My beef with much of the banter in these forums is all the "he said she said" suppositions that goes on. It doesn't help the hobby or people who are new to the hobby.

but picking fights with everyone does help? cmon. you are the most obvious troll in the world, I don't get why people keep feeding you

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well, there a lot of different types of lava rock in terms of composition. Some inert (through people's experience). Some laden with heavy metals 1000 miles inland of mainland China.

On one hand you want to generalize volcanic matter in numerous products as evidence that random “lava rock” is safe, and then when shown some that isn’t, you dismiss it as being from inland China?

Would you care to explain your geological theory as to why lava from near an ocean is less apt to have dangerous metals than that particular lava from cited source?

You have tied yourself in logical knots here to play contrarian. Nobody needs an elephant’s memory when the public record can be searched. Different thread, same pattern. All bluster, no substance.

 

[Fish Fan]

No, you given us your opinion ;-)

Perhaps you're unaware, so let me help you out; Randy is a professional chemist and has been a well known member of the reefing community for many, many years. To dismiss his conclusions as mere 'opinion' shows a serious lack of respect.

Did you give any consideration to the OP by not hijacking their thread? That's more disrespect.

I do hope Randy circles back to this thread and shuts down this cyclical nonsense of an argument.

I have no more comments here.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would not put lava rock in my tank. Too much chance of heavy metal release from it.

Even black sand has been shown to release elements.

Anyone considering this idea should read about the problems some folks have had with black sand, which is just crushed lava.

Example:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/caribsea-hawaiian-black-sand-seriously.755288/#post-7918226

Yes, it is my opinion, as I VERY CLEARLY INDICATED.

I would not put lava rock in my tank. Too much chance of heavy metal release from it.

Obviously that is an opinion stating what I personally would do, and why.

Corals and some other marine inverts are very sensitive to certain heavy metals:

Uptake and partitioning of copper and cadmium in the coral Pocillopora damicornis​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166445X07002962
Fragments of Pocillopora damicornis were exposed in the laboratory to cadmium (Cd) or copper (Cu) chlorides (0, 5, 50 μg l−1) for 14 days and analyzed for metal content in the whole association, algal or animal fractions.
...

Our results demonstrate the accumulation of Cd and Cu in P. damicornis and mortality in the absence of a bleaching response.


Lava can release those very same heavy metals:

Chemical speciation and potential ecological risk assessment of heavy metals in volcanic rocks of Southern Qinghai, China
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02757540.2019.1640686

Seven volcanic rocks samples were collected from Southern Qinghai to analyze chemical speciation and migration behavior of heavy metals by sequential chemical extraction procedure and column leaching test.

...

Cd contributed to most of ecological risk while the remaining heavy metals (except As) exerted medium to high risks to the environment according to the risk assessment code evaluation results. In summary, volcanic rocks possessed potential risks to the surroundings due to potential release of heavy metals. Cd that caused the pollution should be paid special attention.

If the poster states that it is of their opinion then, that's fine.

If a person is going to fall on a sword then at least give some good objective info., on the matter.

Paging Mr. Serling. Mr. Serling, please call your office. Mr. Barnum is holding on line two with a proposal for a collaborative project…

Paging Mr. Serling. Mr. Serling, please call your office. Mr. Barnum is holding on line two.

 

[Bear22]

Perhaps you're unaware, so let me help you out; Randy is a professional chemist and has been a well known member of the reefing community for many, many years. To dismiss his conclusions as mere 'opinion' shows a serious lack of respect.

Did you give any consideration to the OP by not hijacking their thread? That's more disrespect.

I do hope Randy circles back to this thread and shuts down this cyclical nonsense of an argument.

I have no more comments here.

Yes, I know of Randy's contributions to this forum and I appreciate his input(s).

However, it may be for you that everything he says is venerated as Gospel truth, but I assure you that isn't the case with me. I scrutinize what people say and/or their claims. It's called discernment.

Maybe you should work a bit on those reading comprehension skills and re-read the thread start to finish. Randy himself stated that this was his opinion.

I responded to the OP directly and gave my advice. Did you?

I read through Randy's source paper on the lava rock analysis. Did you?

I don't think the findings are a slam dunk apples to apples correlation considering the sample data was from inland source easily a thousand miles or more inside mainland China. Is the China volcanic rock sample the same lava rock that's found on thousands of linear miles of reef bearing tropical islands and atolls?

Is that mainland China igneous rock the same found in a bazillion LFS out there selling lava rock? The reef store closest to me sells lava rock.

Give me some sample data on the aforementioned shoreline lava rock and let's see what the findings says.

Maybe the described motif of "cyclical nonsense of argument" is your emotions getting the better of you...