Is this the beginning of the end?

[Belgian Anthias]

Testing the water now will tell nothing about what might have been the cause. For to be able to start a trouble report one should have the availability over parameters in the past and a log book of what happened in the tank. In most cases problems are related to things one can not measure but sudden changes of often measured parameters may be the messenger something is wrong. What I advice is: when often measured parameters rise suddenly, this when no visual problems may be detected, first find out why, if there is a connection with limited availability of other essential building materials which are not measured , can not be measured or show 0. This can be done by adding a bit of modified f2 media, modified for the increasing messenger, which often is phosphate and or nitrate, and wait and see what happens. Silencing the skimmer also may help. Correcting the messengers, the increasing level(s), without knowing there is a connection with building material availability may cause what is shown here, depending of the methods used to control or lower the levels. A high nitrogen availability ( which is not the same as a high nitrate level) in combination with insufficient essential building material supply ( often phosphorus in LNS ) may mess up de coral bolobiont in a way it may not be able to find its balance, causing symbiodinium loss, called bleaching. When organisms show a high growth rate ( increased temp?) and suddenly on or more essentials are missing, they will grow to dead. In situations where one organism depends of an other it may be fatal for both.

 

[RtomKinMad]

How would you recommend lowering it.
I also am going to retest the magnesium since I don't know how it could of gotten that high since I'm not dosing

We recently had this happen our dozer over did mag and it was 1800ish. All our SPS died, almost lost 6 bubbletip watermelon anemones, but they are slowly coming back. I did a water change with our normal reef crystals salt and the whole tank turned cloudy couldn’t even see five inches into the tank.. all coral suffered including mushrooms. Our LFS owner diagnoses it as a chemical/nutrient problem because of the mag. And when I changed the water 50gal with reefcryatals salt I added more mag to high only made things worse. So to fix: we did water changes every 12 hours with just instant ocean salt has lower minerals not for reef tanks.. and added carbon. Tank was better in two days. LPS is recovering. Nems all moved and strank but are coming back and my birds nest is recovering but not acros those are gone. All fish were ok. So my point is to change water with salt lower in minerals than the tank so it dilutes the mag. Hope this works for you. And carbon is a good idea.
When we added a mandarin to our 1yr old tank we added copepods with it and replaced them frequently. But they also need a healthy ecosystem to survive. We had our mandarin for 5 yrs until it jumped out of tank. I’m guessing chased by our large lime green wrasse. Good luck
Hope it turns around for you.
I was also told 1.026 was max salinity but I’m sure more experienced people can comment on that.
I’m glad everyone is helping. Keep us posted. Pictures might help too.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

. And carbon is a good idea.

Why?

 

[BeejReef]

Was gonna mention salinity also. 1.027 is a bit or more on the high side. Maybe not the sole or primary cause of any struggles, but certainly not going to help.

 

[RtomKinMad]

Why?

I’m no expert for sure but I have found when things die carbon helps remove and release of toxins in the water. It helps clarify water also. I have a great deal of leathers that shed and use carbon after to clean up the water. Someone else mentioned carbon and I was agreeing that I use carbon not daily but as needed and I didn’t think it would hurt this situation. I don’t have an science to back up my statement sorry.

 

[Brad Miller]

First thing I thought of was.....that darn anemone is killing everything

 

[RtomKinMad]

First thing I thought of was.....that darn anemone is killing everything

That’s what I thought when my entire tank clouded! Mag was over 1800 but all anemones that I knew about were accounted for!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I’m no expert for sure but I have found when things die carbon helps remove and release of toxins in the water. It helps clarify water also. I have a great deal of leathers that shed and use carbon after to clean up the water. Someone else mentioned carbon and I was agreeing that I use carbon not daily but as needed and I didn’t think it would hurt this situation. I don’t have an science to back up my statement sorry.

How much is "as needed" and on what parameters the dose is based?
How do you know it helps removing toxins?

Corals produce mucus containing a lot of anorganic phosphate and usable carbon . The mucus production stimulates heterotrophic growth within the holobiont. By providing carbon a coral may control the carbon loop within the holobiont . This way controlling fast growth and the availability of nutrients and building materials within the holobiont.
Will the coral still be able to do that when carbon is unlimited available in the water column?
What is the effect of carbon dosing on the coral holobiont? I do not know. Yet. Carbon dosing for sure will mess up the carbon and nitrogen loop within the aquarium.

Active bacteria produce bacterial toxins, high activity by heterotrophs produces more toxins.
The most common dangerous toxins are palytoxine and maitotoxine. They contain a lot of carbon but not much of other essential building materials . How the addition of more carbon may help to reduce them?
Nature limits organic carbon availability by turning it into CO2 for a reason.

My opinion about dosing supplemental carbon may be retrieved from the above. The more I look into it the more I get convinced carbon dosing is certainly not innocent. I will not advice it exempt for to removal of high ammonia as an emergency procedure.

 

[RtomKinMad]

How much is "as needed" and on what parameters the dose is based?
How do you know it helps removing toxins?

Corals produce mucus containing a lot of anorganic phosphate and usable carbon . The mucus production stimulates heterotrophic growth within the holobiont. By providing carbon a coral may control the carbon loop within the holobiont . This way controlling fast growth and the availability of nutrients and building materials within the holobiont.
Will the coral still be able to do that when carbon is unlimited available in the water column?
What is the effect of carbon dosing on the coral holobiont? I do not know. Yet. Carbon dosing for sure will mess up the carbon and nitrogen loop within the aquarium.

Active bacteria produce bacterial toxins, high activity by heterotrophs produces more toxins.
The most common dangerous toxins are palytoxine and maitotoxine. They contain a lot of carbon but not much of other essential building materials . How the addition of more carbon may help to reduce them?
Nature limits organic carbon availability by turning it into CO2 for a reason.

My opinion about dosing supplemental carbon may be retrieved from the above. The more I look into it the more I get convinced carbon dosing is certainly not innocent. I will not advice it exempt for to removal of high ammonia as an emergency procedure.

Thank you for all the information. We only run carbon when the water is not as clear like once every other week or once a month depending how the water looks. We do weekly 10% changes and run carbon when the water has a yellowish tint or the mushrooms are all shedding. And then for 24hrs. But I have heard of some people running it all the time. We only run carbon because have been advices in the past and it clears up water nicely. We remove after 24 hours. With the incident I described earlier we ran carbon for 4 days to help and it did immensely. Here’s some pictures. Before we started the carbon and changed the water with lower mag salt and then 24 hours later and then the next day. Tank is clear today but we lost SPS corals. We had no idea what caused the cloudiness woke up to a cloudy tank but only a little. So I changed 55gal and it immediately got worse and the ph dropped to 7.5. I panicked. My husband went to LFS and the owner had me do tests and mag was well over 1800. Alk was 13! And ph was 7.5. Used Hanna checkers. Phos so high Hanna couldn’t count it. We bought new salt and changed 55 gal of water with instant ocean salt every 12 hours x3 and ran lots of carbon Incase a toxin got into the tank. None that we could account for. We are extremely careful with the tank and our hands. No candles in house and keep chemicals away from tank.
Thank you for sharing the information about the carbon. I’m not that technical.

 

[Hermie]

@Belgian Anthias @RtomKinMad
Ok

One of you is talking about Granular Activated Carbon and the other is talking about adding Carbon to the water column. I assume one of you knows this and is ignoring the fact that there's a discrepancy in semantics but I could be wrong which is why I am posting this in the first place.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thank you for all the information. We only run carbon when the water is not as clear like once every other week or once a month depending how the water looks. We do weekly 10% changes and run carbon when the water has a yellowish tint or the mushrooms are all shedding. And then for 24hrs. But I have heard of some people running it all the time. We only run carbon because have been advices in the past and it clears up water nicely. We remove after 24 hours. With the incident I described earlier we ran carbon for 4 days to help and it did immensely. Here’s some pictures. Before we started the carbon and changed the water with lower mag salt and then 24 hours later and then the next day. Tank is clear today but we lost SPS corals. We had no idea what caused the cloudiness woke up to a cloudy tank but only a little. So I changed 55gal and it immediately got worse and the ph dropped to 7.5. I panicked. My husband went to LFS and the owner had me do tests and mag was well over 1800. Alk was 13! And ph was 7.5. Used Hanna checkers. Phos so high Hanna couldn’t count it. We bought new salt and changed 55 gal of water with instant ocean salt every 12 hours x3 and ran lots of carbon Incase a toxin got into the tank. None that we could account for. We are extremely careful with the tank and our hands. No candles in house and keep chemicals away from tank.
Thank you for sharing the information about the carbon. I’m not that technical.

I think I made a mistake. I think you meant activated carbon instead of carbohydrates. Sorry for that. What I wrote concerns carbon hydrates addition.
GAC may remove some of the toxins. As may a skimmer.

 

[RtomKinMad]

@Belgian Anthias @RtomKinMad
Ok

One of you is talking about Granular Activated Carbon and the other is talking about adding Carbon to the water column. I assume one of you knows this and is ignoring the fact that there's a discrepancy in semantics but I could be wrong which is why I am posting this in the first place.

Thank you, sorry for the confusion. I was talking about activated carbon in all instances. I’m sorry, I just went to tell how we reduced the overdose of magnesium and alkalinity in our 300gal tank. And as you can see from the pictures we posted the results were pretty bad so we ran carbon too since we did have some corals die. All anemones and fish survived but very very stressed anemones that are still recovering three weeks later and the fish were very stressed but all lived. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

 

[Terry Mattson]

I'll double my feeding and set up that white worm culture. With the female mandarin since I'd seen the male eat frozen I thought it was good and I was just told to reduce light?

At night look to see if you got copods running around using a flashlight. I check mine nearly every night. My mandarin is doing good however I have noticed the population is slowly decreasing. I dose live phytoplankton twice a week. Copods love that stuff. I have a small refugium with cheto and do have copods there also. I have ordered more copods due in tomorrow to boost population. Thinking of culturing phytoplankton and copods. Would be a lot cheaper. The copods will also help clean tank and corals have live food to capture. Hope this inspires some thought ....

 

[Terry Mattson]

Thank you, sorry for the confusion. I was talking about activated carbon in all instances. I’m sorry, I just went to tell how we reduced the overdose of magnesium and alkalinity in our 300gal tank. And as you can see from the pictures we posted the results were pretty bad so we ran carbon too since we did have some corals die. All anemones and fish survived but very very stressed anemones that are still recovering three weeks later and the fish were very stressed but all lived. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Some general numbers. Your chemistry is out of norm.
Sg 1.025 to 1.026
Mag 1350
Cal 420 to 450
Dkh 8 to 9
Phosphate. 03
Nitrate <5 but not zero
Iodine .06ppm
Ph 8.2 range 7.8 to 8.4
Hope this helps.

 

[RtomKinMad]

Some general numbers. Your chemistry is out of norm.
Sg 1.025 to 1.026
Mag 1350
Cal 420 to 450
Dkh 8 to 9
Phosphate. 03
Nitrate <5 but not zero
Iodine .06ppm
Ph 8.2 range 7.8 to 8.4
Hope this helps.

Thank you. Our dosed must have overdosed. The numbers were in range the weekend before then all of a sudden tank cloudy and spike in phosphorus and algae bloom then near tank crash. We do normally keep in those ranges. Have a Apex which was alarming also. We are only manually dosing now.