Is Vibrant trying to kill my lions

lion king

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I've had these lions for over 7 years, there's also another one in this tank for 8 years. I had let my 210g go and it was riddled with algae, so i clean it up and dosed Vibrant, I was amazed. After 3 weeks the tank was so clean I have to start feeding my tangs greens again. I was so impressed I decided to try in my 90g lion's reef, although this tank looked pretty good, I just wanted it to sparkle. 2 days later the fu manchu is hiding missing her feeding time, and the check out the eyes on these 2.

Vibrant says its bacteria, I have to think that it's something more. After further consideration I just don't know how bacteria alone could clean a tank like it did my 210g. After the way my lions reacted i have to think there's also some sort of algaecide. Lions don't react well to many things, I've seen more than one lion perish to chemiclean.

I did an emergency large water change and dropped in some chemipure. I'm hoping for the best but I just have to wait it out now. The cloudy eyes are a protection that lions do have, and I'm hoping that they can handle whatever did irritate them. Cloudy eyes will many times go with their shedding activity when they are fighting something off. So in reality it's above 50/50. I'm a little afraid for the fu, since most can't keep them that long, 8 years is like grandma years.

Give me your thoughts on this.


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JumboShrimp

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Interesting scenario— keep us posted; let’s hope it’s just a bad coincidence.
 

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I've had these lions for over 7 years, there's also another one in this tank for 8 years. I had let my 210g go and it was riddled with algae, so i clean it up and dosed Vibrant, I was amazed. After 3 weeks the tank was so clean I have to start feeding my tangs greens again. I was so impressed I decided to try in my 90g lion's reef, although this tank looked pretty good, I just wanted it to sparkle. 2 days later the fu manchu is hiding missing her feeding time, and the check out the eyes on these 2.

Vibrant says its bacteria, I have to think that it's something more. After further consideration I just don't know how bacteria alone could clean a tank like it did my 210g. After the way my lions reacted i have to think there's also some sort of algaecide. Lions don't react well to many things, I've seen more than one lion perish to chemiclean.

I did an emergency large water change and dropped in some chemipure. I'm hoping for the best but I just have to wait it out now. The cloudy eyes are a protection that lions do have, and I'm hoping that they can handle whatever did irritate them. Cloudy eyes will many times go with their shedding activity when they are fighting something off. So in reality it's above 50/50. I'm a little afraid for the fu, since most can't keep them that long, 8 years is like grandma years.

Give me your thoughts on this.


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Oh, man. Hate to see problems like this pop up. Whenever I have fish that react badly to meds, I've found that adding the "maintenance" dose of Seachem Stability really seems to help re-balance the "good" bacteria within the tank making it easier for the fish's immune system to help itself. And if eating, adding beta glucan to the food mix helps boost too. Just alternate weeks of BG once the fish has recovered.
 

Halal Hotdog

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If large enough bacteria count was present it could consume a significant portion of the dissolved oxygen in the tank as well as make the water more acidic. I have had carbon dosing kill a couple cucumbers because of a bacteria bloom that did not affect the fish.
 
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lion king

lion king

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If large enough bacteria count was present it could consume a significant portion of the dissolved oxygen in the tank as well as make the water more acidic. I have had carbon dosing kill a couple cucumbers because of a bacteria bloom that did not affect the fish.

Makes sense about the O2, which is why i believe the chemiclean kills. But the cloudy eyes is generally a protection from a chemical attack, which includes ammonia and the likes, it could be many things. Lions even exhibit their shedding protection which does include cloudy eyes, sometimes to just acclimate to a new chemical balance in an otherwise healthy tank. That's why I'm thinking Vibrant is more than just bacteria. A decrease in O2 would generally not cause cloudy eyes.
 

Halal Hotdog

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Makes sense about the O2, which is why i believe the chemiclean kills. But the cloudy eyes is generally a protection from a chemical attack, which includes ammonia and the likes, it could be many things. Lions even exhibit their shedding protection which does include cloudy eyes, sometimes to just acclimate to a new chemical balance in an otherwise healthy tank. That's why I'm thinking Vibrant is more than just bacteria. A decrease in O2 would generally not cause cloudy eyes.
I know a poor diet can lead to cloudiness of the eyes, I doubt that is the case in your situation. Also doubt cataracts formed overnight. Might be the acidic environment coupled with low O2 the bacteria created led to it. Truly hope it is a temporary situation and resolves.
 
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lion king

lion king

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I know a poor diet can lead to cloudiness of the eyes, I doubt that is the case in your situation. Also doubt cataracts formed overnight. Might be the acidic environment coupled with low O2 the bacteria created led to it. Truly hope it is a temporary situation and resolves.
I'll check ph later, but it may have rebounded by now. And a drop to acid would certainly cause the cloudy eyes.

So you are saying the bacteria load caused a drop in O2, which caused a ph drop. And yes lions are just more sensitive to such things. No fish had any adverse reactions in my 210g.
 

Halal Hotdog

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Typically when I get a bacterial bloom (purposeful) pH drops very quickly. Didn't realize this until I got an Apex, which monitored pH in real time. I verified with a handheld monitor just to be sure, and it was correct. I went from pH of 7.9 to 6.5!!! That was much larger than I expected. Did not self resolve for 48 hours, until the bloom was gone. After 20 hours I was back in the 7s.

The reasons I periodically cause bacterial blooms was to thoroughly clean the live rock, and it does work. Since I discovered the large drop in pH I have moved away from this. This is coming from someone who said an Apex was a waste of money lol, how wrong I was.
 
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lion king

lion king

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They are all eating and mostly back to normal. The eyes have cleared up and fu came out and ate a molly today. Her color is a little faded, but she may be doing a full shed. The other 2 didn't appear to shed. I don't think we can argue that the vibrant was the cause of this ruckus. Although I don't think it would have ended in death, I still wouldn't recommend the use of vibrant with lions, or any member of the Scorpaenidae family.

i would be interested if others saw reactions in any other species. Since I have seen eels have similar reactions with meds and chemical posioning as lions, i wonder if eels would react negatively.
 

piranhaman00

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I had a thought about this. The makers of vibrant insist that UV sterilization does not need to be turned off during treatment. If this is only a bacterial product, UV would surely affect its effectiveness.

Hope the lions are doing better!
 
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lion king

lion king

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Fu and antennata are dead, both died overnight. I couldn't find my dissection tools and did a pretty good butcher job cutting them open. I really didn't find anything drastic, some slight hemmorraging at the base of the liver in the antennata, the color of the liver was good. Their stomach contents were empty and there was no obvious signs that could be determined.

All the organs looked really good with very little fat deposit; a bit more in the antennata but not excessive.. They lived on a live dominant diet; ghosties 2-3 times a week and mollies once a week. They would get a chunk of fatty fish occasionally if they would take it, tuna and salmon. Some "tiny shrimp", human grade krill from the asian market, and silver fish from the asian market; occasionally if they would take it.

The fu was a female and her ovaries were completely shrunken and dark. Fu's don't usually come in itty bitty and she was likely over 3 years if not 4 when I got her. She lived with me for 8.5 years, so that puts her at about 12 or older, which is in line with their lifespan in the wild; still sad.

The antenatta was a male, he was a little guy when I got him, likely around 3 years. He was with me almost 8 years, so it puts him at the low end of their lifespan in the wild.

Exactly what may have happened I don't know, but I'm not much for coincidences. Their decline started immediately after the dosage of vibrant and 2 died the same night. The zebra is hanging on and there just isn't anything to do. Ph test 8.0-8.1 and all other levels are good. I am 100% convinced that vibrant is not just bacteria, and be forewarned; DO NOT dose this stuff with lions or scorps.


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Halal Hotdog

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Sorry for the loss. Never easy to lose a fish, especially when they have been with you for the greater part of a decade.
 
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lion king

lion king

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Wow terrible news. What exactly is the image of? I cant make it out.

You can see the liver on the top right, a caramel color, which is a nice healthy color. At the base behind the connective tissue, you can see some blood. While this may indicate a hemorrhage at the base of the liver, it not absolute that killed him. This is the antenatal, the fu had no signs of hemorrage.
 

JumboShrimp

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That must have been a terrible feeling to wake up and find your pets dead. Just to rephrase, are you essentially equating Vibrant with a fast-acting fish poison, at least as to these species of fish? On the one hand, with probably tens of thousands of bottles sold, I don’t see how they could still be in business (selling fish poison). But to your point, who would not logically connect two long-term fish dying on you just after treating the tank with Vibrant? Quite the puzzlement. Again, so sorry for your loss.
 
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lion king

lion king

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That must have been a terrible feeling to wake up and find your pets dead. Just to rephrase, are you essentially equating Vibrant with a fast-acting fish poison, at least as to these species of fish? On the one hand, with probably tens of thousands of bottles sold, I don’t see how they could still be in business (selling fish poison). But to your point, who would not logically connect two long-term fish dying on you just after treating the tank with Vibrant? Quite the puzzlement. Again, so sorry for your loss.
Copper, antibiotics, and other poisons are sold for fish. Chemiclean and flatworms exit has been routinely linked to some species of fish deaths. So what's your question.

Looking at this logically; 3 healthy long term fish of the same species, immediately and simultaneously have a health trauma after an addition of a product. 2 die in the same night and the other hanging on. Hey, I'm just sharing my experience, it's up to whomever reads it, to do with the information as they see fit.
 
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