It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Land Shark]

Thanks for the synopsis. It was much needed and appreciated. I’ve been reefing for 5 years and still consider myself a rookie due to my work schedule I’ve been unable to run a proper quarantine system. All 8 fish I have tried to get through quarantine have died for various reasons and I’m looking for another option.

I want to try this method but I live in the middle of Canada. I don’t have access to my own sea creature and bio-diversity from the ocean and I still have to check our fish market for unfrozen whole foods and guts.

Could bacterial diversity be achieved by getting some rubble from a large diversity of other reefers established tanks and multiple bacteria in a bottle products?

Sorry if this has already been covered.[/QUOTE]

Hey Kactai, even if you are land locked, bacterial diversity is available for you from many sources. Take advantage of your local seafood market. Fresh fish, clams, shrimp for starters. The masters of this technique may chime in with more ideas to offer you.

Remember, you have to practice everything covered to realize long term success. It’s a solid approach.

 

[Brew12]

Take advantage of your local seafood market.

One thing I learned, ask questions of the guy behind the counter! It isn't uncommon for stores to sell previously frozen stuff. They don't necessarily do it to be deceptive, but more to give customers the option to buy less than the prepackaged amounts. A

 

[Gareth elliott]

One thing I learned, ask questions of the guy behind the counter! It isn't uncommon for stores to sell previously frozen stuff. They don't necessarily do it to be deceptive, but more to give customers the option to buy less than the prepackaged amounts. A

This is especially true of sushi grade seafood. New York in 2015 changed their laws to be more in line with japan’s(where sea food is often frozen on the boat to speed up this process). The human communicable parasites found in seafood are killed during freezing but i believe its 72 hours.
Sidenote.
If ever want to eek yourself out ask if they use ph strips making the sushi rice

 

[Paul B]

I want to try this method but I live in the middle of Canada. I don’t have access to my own sea creature and bio-diversity from the ocean and I still have to check our fish market for unfrozen whole foods and guts.

Could bacterial diversity be achieved by getting some rubble from a large diversity of other reefers established tanks and multiple bacteria in a bottle products?

You don't need anything from the sea for immunity but it would help with general tank health, IMO. After all, All of our fish came from the sea except for a few tank bred individuals so adding living bacteria from the sea would seem to be beneficiary. Of course if you can't, then you can't.

Fish need (again IMO) living bacteria and pathogens that they can get from seafood sold in a market. Clams or fresh fish would have living bacteria and parasites as would living worms. I am not sure if the worms harbor enough bacteria to be effective, but I know in my tank, they do as that is how I got my fish immune in the first place, with live blackworms.

how do you add non-immune fish to a tank that uses this method.

I am not sure but I would allow them to get sick, then cure them. Parasites are very easy to cure.
But remember, all your fish from a LFS that were wild caught, which is almost all of them will already be immune, just in bad shape but fish spring back in a very short time like days on the correct food. Flakes and pellets is not the correct food.

 

[Kactai]

Hi again,

At the local grocery store I can get fresh mussels (although they may be freshwater), whole Whiting and whole Mackerel. As far as worms go, I’m having difficulty finding sources in Canada for live worms suitable for feeding in a reef tank.

I can also get whole fresh wild caught shrimp but they seem to be preserved with salts.

INGREDIENTS
WILD SHRIMP, SODIUM METABISULFITE, SODIUM CITRATE, SODIUM CARBONATE.

Would the shrimp, while fish and mussels be a decent blend? Can I use this shrimp? How long can my blend be frozen for?

Also any help regarding live worms or live food would be appreciated.

I also have a question about equipment. Ozonator, oxydator or UV? I‘m leaning more towards oxydator or ornozonator since there are no bulbs or pumps to maintain/replace.

 

[Paul B]

I would not use the preserved shrimp. Sea mussels would be better (I think). Mussels are filter feeders and are full of nutrients including calcium, I don't know whats in fresh water mussels.
I like ozonators, other people like oxidators. I don't think it makes a difference and not sure if any are needed as tanks work great without them.
You can use bait worms, or earth worms, you can also freeze them. Your house freezer isn't cold enough to bother bacteria enough so you should be good for months. Of course the less time in the freezer, the better.
Mackeral should be good as they are an oily salt water fish

 

[Land Shark]

I also have a question about equipment. Ozonator, oxydator or UV? I‘m leaning more towards oxydator or ornozonator since there are no bulbs or pumps to maintain/replace.

An ozone generator is definitely the lowest cost filtration solution and that is what I "currently" use. I bought the ozone instead of UV to "save" money, or so I thought. The problem with them, at least in my case, is I can still smell the slight odor of ozone in my fish room at night when the generator is running. You also have to spend a lot of cash on carbon (GAC). I bought and tested 2 different reactors that were supposed to eliminate all residual ozone but even the manufacturer of one of them told me that their is still a little bit of ozone smell left over.

My wife can smell the ozone when she goes near the fish room late at night. As a result, we had a "big discussion" about it. Now the ozone generator gets blamed for everything. Long story short, I promised to replace the ozone generator with a UV sterilizer. I will have to replace the UV bulb periodically but I won't need to run carbon to absorb residual ozone anymore either. The bulb vs carbon cost should be a wash. The cost of the UV itself is much higher then an ozone generator ($120 VS $400).

The UV sterilizer that the top reefers like slief and others recommend is the UltraUV brand. In my case, I have a 150 gallon system so I'll be getting their 57 watt unit, which is rated for 350 gallons. I'm also getting the model that includes a bulb cleaner/wiper bar. It's always best to use a UV sterilizer that is properly powered or slightly over sized for the size of your system.

 

[Land Shark]

I like ozonators, other people like oxidators. I don't think it makes a difference and not sure if any are needed as tanks work great without them.

You don't want to be that someone who downplays things they themselves do. The whole method is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Mark]

The UV sterilizer that the top reefers like slief and others recommend is the UltraUV brand. In my case, I have a 150 gallon system so I'll be getting their 57 watt unit, which is rated for 350 gallons. I'm also getting the model that includes a bulb cleaner/wiper bar. It's always best to use a UV sterilizer that is properly powered or slightly over sized for the size of your system.

Skip the wiper. They are ineffective in saltwater applications and just another leak point.

 

[Gweeds1980]

An ozone generator is definitely the lowest cost filtration solution and that is what I "currently" use. I bought the ozone instead of UV to "save" money, or so I thought. The problem with them, at least in my case, is I can still smell the slight odor of ozone in my fish room at night when the generator is running. You also have to spend a lot of cash on carbon (GAC). I bought and tested 2 different reactors that were supposed to eliminate all residual ozone but even the manufacturer of one of them told me that their is still a little bit of ozone smell left over.

My wife can smell the ozone when she goes near the fish room late at night. As a result, we had a "big discussion" about it. Now the ozone generator gets blamed for everything. Long story short, I promised to replace the ozone generator with a UV sterilizer. I will have to replace the UV bulb periodically but I won't need to run carbon to absorb residual ozone anymore either. The bulb vs carbon cost should be a wash. The cost of the UV itself is much higher then an ozone generator ($120 VS $400).

The UV sterilizer that the top reefers like slief and others recommend is the UltraUV brand. In my case, I have a 150 gallon system so I'll be getting their 57 watt unit, which is rated for 350 gallons. I'm also getting the model that includes a bulb cleaner/wiper bar. It's always best to use a UV sterilizer that is properly powered or slightly over sized for the size of your system.

If you're talking about using UV for parasite control, you want a massively oversized unit with much, much slower flow than recommended. I forget what the exposure time required at a certain wattage is, but it's a long while at a high wattage to kill ich!

I went for a pond UV system... sure it won't last forever in salt water, but it's good up to 15000 litres and I ran it at 1500lph.

Tbh, 200 or 300 lph would have been better.

 

[Land Shark]

Skip the wiper. They are ineffective in saltwater applications and just another leak point.

Hey Mark, thanks for the heads up.

How often does the bulb need cleaning and how do I do that? How often does the bulb need replacement?

 

[Land Shark]

If you're talking about using UV for parasite control, you want a massively oversized unit with much, much slower flow than recommended. I forget what the exposure time required at a certain wattage is, but it's a long while at a high wattage to kill ich!

I went for a pond UV system... sure it won't last forever in salt water, but it's good up to 15000 litres and I ran it at 1500lph.

Tbh, 200 or 300 lph would have been better.

Hey Gweeds, I'll be sure to make sure the flow is nice and slow per your recommendation. I'm looking at the 57 watt AquaUV and my system is 150 gallons total. How many gallons is your system and how many watts is your UV drawing?

 

[Gweeds1980]

Hey Gweeds, I'll be sure to make sure the flow is nice and slow per your recommendation. I'm looking at the 57 watt AquaUV and my system is 150 gallons total. How many gallons is your system and how many watts is your UV drawing?

The system volume is approx 320usg. The UV is 110w (not 55w as I think I posted before).

 

[Kactai]

I found this lady who wells worms online in Canada:

https://wormlady.myshopify.com/

I think they are geard towards reptiles but the waxworm description says great for use as fishing bait. I’m concerned that they may be too big. But I’ll try it out.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Wax worms are the larvae of wax moths. They are “just ok” nutrition wise, even for reptiles. If unable to find feeding worms look for garden supply online. Red wrigglers, commonly used for compost are a better overall food than the snack of wax worms. And commonly available almost anywhere and easy to culture, unlike earth worms do not require deep soil(meters).

 

[Land Shark]

The system volume is approx 320usg. The UV is 110w (not 55w as I think I posted before).

Good info for sure. If my calculations are correct, 110w/320gal=1/3 watt per gallon. My 57w/150=1/3 approx as well so I should have about the same wattage as you. The flow will be extremely slow at about 50 Gallons per hour. Thanks!

 

[Dancingmad]

@Gweeds1980

Long time lurker on this thread. Lots of good debate and dialogue. Its been a few pages since we've seen some pictures. I'm a simple man that enjoys his literature in pop-up book form. How about some update pictures of the tank in question? How're the fish doing?

As it pertains to food and bacteria I can only advise that everyone here loves clam day. Every 2-3 days I parade around the house announcing its clam day. My wife and newborn look at me funny(mostly because sometimes there is a dance involved, but that's not for R2R display). Well, maybe not everyone likes clam day, but all my tank inhabitants sure do.

 

[Gweeds1980]

@Gweeds1980

Long time lurker on this thread. Lots of good debate and dialogue. Its been a few pages since we've seen some pictures. I'm a simple man that enjoys his literature in pop-up book form. How about some update pictures of the tank in question? How're the fish doing?

As it pertains to food and bacteria I can only advise that everyone here loves clam day. Every 2-3 days I parade around the house announcing its clam day. My wife and newborn look at me funny(mostly because sometimes there is a dance involved, but that's not for R2R display). Well, maybe not everyone likes clam day, but all my tank inhabitants sure do.

Thanks. As mentioned earlier on, the reef in question has now been pulled down

Child number 4, wife wanting to reduce hours at work and lack of time for maintenance all led to the decision to pull it... that said, I'm sure @PaulB, @atol and others will happily post some pics up.

Here's a FTS the week before it came down and the last fish shots I took...

 

[Dancingmad]

Thanks. As mentioned earlier on, the reef in question has now been pulled down

Arg, I missed that very important post. How embarrassing! Thanks for sharing the pics nonetheless!

After 10 years in saltwater I'm still impressed that anything I put in my glass boxes actually lives. Thanks for your efforts and so many others for contributing to the discussion (and I hope it keeps going on).

 

[Gareth elliott]

If in the states for reptiles i use joshsfrogs.com. I rehabbed an archer fish briefly also ordered food from here.