It's been a crazy week and my tank shows it. Parameters are all out of whack

[shollis2814]

I am probably going to go too long with this post. I am a talkative guy, I want to give as much info as possible of the events that have led up to this week, and hopefully solve the mystery of what is draining my supplements. I will try to be brief where I can and details where necessary. There is a too long; didn't read at the bottom with the base facts.

The Setup: 36 gallon bowfront with a 5 gallon sump. Also running a Coralife HOB filter with built in skimmer. It's almost 5 years old. I let things get out of balance. 2.5 years ago, my wife was diagnosed with cancer (she is fine now). I overfed my tank and myself. I put off water changes. Things got bad. Recently, my daughter struggled with processing the cancer and anxiety and depression took hold. She is now 1000 miles away at a residential treatment center getting the help she needs. I share that because I know there seem to be a few people of faith on this board, and we will take all the prayers we can get. It has been a stressful and traumatic couple of years. Not excusing my tank's state of decay, but explaining. I own it. I did it. I want to fix it.

Back in July I started trying to get back into maintenance. I started dosing with Vibrant, doing water changes, reducing feeding, etc. I was making headway. For those of you know know ecology, it was really cool to watch the reverse succession as the algae died off from the most complex to the simpler types. Then the cyano showed up. After doing some research, I dosed with Chemi-clean and did a 3-day blackout, followed by a 50% water change. I was making progress. Then as the cyano died, I got a GHA outbreak that was pretty bad. This brings us to...

The Chaos: Last Friday night about 11:30 pm, I was headed up to bed and saw a puddle of water in the floor. At the base of my tank was a pretty steady rivulet of water coming from the plastic strip along the bottom. Slow leak. I grabbed my bucket and siphon. I dumped a lot of the water. I filled another bucket and started piling my corals in. After the water dropped to a certain point, it relieved enough pressure so that the dribbling stopped. I went to bed about 1 am thinking I was done with this hobby I got into 35 years ago. I was pretty devastated.

The Solution: After some sleep, I woke up and started assessing the situation more realistically and talked to my wife. I was at my LFS when it opened and bought a 20 gallon long. I came home, set it up with totally new water and new substrate, and then started aquascaping as much as I could, using an old toothbrush to get as much of the GHA off as I could. I didn't use all the live rock, but I used what I could. I turned down my lighting because I realized in my new tank, the bottom was now 9" closer to the top, so I was getting more intensity with my lower placed coral frags. I use 2 Orbit Marine PRO LED strips that were at a custom setting. I reset it to default and I started the Acclimation program (more on that below). I had no room for the sump (location change for the tank) so I kept my coralife HOB and skimmer, and had an old Regent double chamber HOB I also put on there for extra circulation. I was expecting a mini-cycle, but because I kept a lot of the live rock, I wasn't expecting a 1.0 ammonia spike over the next few days. I lost one fish, and several corals in the transition. I decided to test and change water as I needed to, and see how things shook out. In my HOBs I put in Purigen, Carbon, an ammonia pad, some Chemi-Pure and some PhosGuard. I absolutely realize this may be contributing to my problems below (or not).

The New Problem: I will give hard data below, but something is sucking the calcium and lowering the alkalinity like never before. I don't know why since I don't have a lot of SPS. I downloaded an app the third day the new tank to track parameters. I have tried to keep detailed notes. I have replaced out of date test kits, etc. and gotten my LFS to confirm some readings.

The Data (Tl;dr):
Tank: 20 gallon long, fresh live sand, and about 25-30 lbs of live rock (maybe more). Setup 12/1/18 with survivors from my 5 year old 36 bowfront.

Lighting: 2 Current Orbit Marine PRO LED (one older model that's a bit longer than the newer model) using the following program

• Blue Light-on at 8 am, off at 4 pm, 30 minute sunrise/sunset fade, 0% minimum intensity, 60% maximum intensity, no moonlight period.
• White Light- on at 8:30 am, off at 3 pm, 0% minimum intensity, 60% maximum intensity.

Parameter Journal:

• 12/2- temp 78.7 Ammonia .15, Nitrate 0, Salinity, 1.023, Calcium 380, pH 8, Nitrite 0, Alkalinity 8. Dosed with 1.2 tsp of Reef Advantage Calcium.
• 12/3- Ammonia 1.0, Calcium 360, did a 25% water change and dosed again with 1/2 tsp of Reed Advantage Calcium, and and 1/4 tsp of Seachem Reef Builder.
  
• 12/4- temp 78.9, Ammonia .5, Nitrate 5, Salinity 1.026, Calcium 400, pH 8.2, Alkalinity 9, Magnesium 900--Dosed 1 tsp Reed Advantage Magnesium and 4 ml of Brightweel Aquatics Reef Code A. Bumped thermometer down a bit.
  
• 12/6- temp 76.6, Ammonia .5, Nitrate 10, Salinity 1.027, Calcium 390, pH 8.2, Alkalinity 8.5, Magnesium 1040 Did a 25% water change, replaced with some fresh top off to drop salinity. Added Reef Advantage Calcium (1/2 tsp), 1/4 tsp of Seachem Reef Builder and Magnesium (1 tsp).
• 12/7 Did a water change to use up the last of my LFS water so I could drop nitrates and refill for weekend before testing- temp 77.6, Ammonia 0, Nitrate 5, Salinity 1.018 (used to adjusting in the 40. Misjudged, fixed this a bit ago with a partial water change. Now at 1.022 and I will raise again tomorrow), Calcium 300, pH 8.2, Alkalinity 7.5, Magnesium 1260. I was advised at LFS to not worry about Ca and Alk until I could get Magnesium up and stable at 1300 ppm.

The residents:

• Fish: 1 PJ Cardinal (survived the move), 1 Rose Goby (added 12/7) 1 Green Stripe Goby (added 12/7)
• Non Coral inverts: 3-4 Nassarius, 4-5 turbos, 20-30 small blue-legged hermits, 1 Emerald Crab, and 1 Pom Pom Crab.

Corals. I really don't remember a lot of the names and most of my corals are frags. I took pictures. Some of them are still pretty ticked off by the move and I am not sure what I have lost yet. Any ID's would also be helpful. I have lost track of things. I know I lost a large war coral encrusted rock, and a larger...maybe Euphyllia? It looked like a wavy flower with short fleshy tentacles. These pics are from left to right and I do my best to describe/ID.

That is not a Kenya Tree, but something similar. It is almost free from its base, and I need to reattach. My largest colony (Cyphastrea), and 3 small zoa polyps.

small Zoa colony, Duncan, Candy Cane, small Zoa colony

War coral frag, dead frag behind the turbo (Red Hot Chili Pepper Montipora), small Zoa colony, Small Bird's Nest/Cat's Paw frag, small zoa colony. The frag in the back had a lot of tentacles coming out of a long stony tube. I think only 1 of the 4 tubes has life in it.

A really dull Cyphastrea that may be dead, but I do see some tentacle-like things, probably dead candy cane, edge of ticked off Acans.

Ticked off Acans, Cup Coral Frag, probably dead Jedi Mind Trick Montipora, larger blue star polyp(?) colony.

The Wrap Up: If you read all this, thank you. I know it was long-winded, but it was also cathartic. These are the questions I have:

• What could be causing this calcium/dkH drop?
  
• Is my LFS correct to stabilize Magnesium and then work on Calcium and Alkalinity together?
• When would it be safe to up the lights to the same time, but 80% intensity (the next Acclimation program on the Orbits)?
• In short, I need a triage. I know a little bit of chemistry (enough to get my biology degree 25 years ago), but I admit this is a complex system that is out of whack. I need a prioritized list of what to do. I am chasing too many variables at once.

I really appreciate your time.

 

[JasonK84]

Sorry to hear about your struggles. Glad your wife is well and hope your daughter is able to deal with life and get back to you. I don't have answers for your questions but you were right to neglect the tank to care for your family.

Best wishes.

 

[Katrina71]

I agree. I also think the tank and your daughter are getting the care they deserve.

 

[shollis2814]

Sorry to hear about your struggles. Glad your wife is well and hope your daughter is able to deal with life and get back to you. I don't have answers for your questions but you were right to neglect the tank to care for your family.

Best wishes.

Thanks. It was a form of therapy for me when things got tough. I appreciate your words. Thank you for reading my epistle

 

[shollis2814]

I agree. I also think the tank and your daughter are getting the care they deserve.

Thanks. I didn't think I would tear up tonight, but...

 

[JasonK84]

Thanks. It was a form of therapy for me when things got tough. I appreciate your words. Thank you for reading my epistle

If nothing else, we are here for support. Weather for the tank or life.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hey old friend.

Kinda thinkin it’s the salinity and test error on the cal. Mag , fwiw , is the most common test error across all the tests.
So odd ball drops, Esp if they are out of range of an even drop (Ie , mag 900 and alk 400) would suggest this. Particularly if it’s after a water change.

Naturally a couple wc will get you back close to specs.

As far as dosing , I’m not familiar with the products, but if they are the same brand they may be formulated like other two part (actually three), in that you dose them evenly. So one cap alk one cal one mag etc.
so by that, all you have to test for really is alk. If alk is low so are the other three by the same amount by volume.

As far as the light , do look at the current websites specs , those are spot on. So you can est the par kinda. Or we can work on that later.

 

[shollis2814]

Hey old friend.

Kinda thinkin it’s the salinity and test error on the cal. Mag , fwiw , is the most common test error across all the tests.
So odd ball drops, Esp if they are out of range of an even drop (Ie , mag 900 and alk 400) would suggest this. Particularly if it’s after a water change.

Naturally a couple wc will get you back close to specs.
.

I have a new Red Sea Magnesium kit, so the reagents are not out of date or old. It could be user error, but do have a bio degree and 2 decades as a science teacher, so I do know how to titrate (that re-reads way more snarky than I intend it to. Just saying I do my best to follow the directions as best I can). My LFS did stop testing Magnesium a couple years ago because of the time (and I guess expense of the good kits). So, you have a point in that I don't have a way to check for accuracy.

What I can't figure out, though, is that I am doing some pretty decent water changes and stuff still drops.

 

[shollis2814]

And @saltyfilmfolks are these the Current specs you were referring to?

https://current-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Orbit_Marine_Light_Specifications.pdf

I went fro a tank 21" deep to one that is 12" deep. I am running 2 of the 4110. I should really be able to get into some other corals once I get parameters in line according to that chart! Thanks!

 

[SPR1968]

If it were me, I would start by getting the salinity stable because from the results it’s been moving around, and also you were showing ammonia only a few days ago if those dates are correct ?

Do you have an ATO system as that will sort the salinity issue out once you get it stable.

I think I agree with @saltyfilmfolks those foundation element results could well be test error, because the kits we use are hobby grade and all have margins of test error, so we’re not saying it’s you, it’s just the kits aren’t that accurate, especially if your testing every day it will look like there all over the place.

And the Red Sea Magnesium test, you only have to breath once to often and you’ll get a wild result with that!

On your last test, forgetting salinity which your dealing with, just bring the Magnesium up a little first, and then the calcium, and to be honest there not that bad anyway just a little low.

And whatever you do, do not start chasing the numbers or you will, quiet simply, drive yourself insane!

This is a very good guide from the expert on parameters:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The one thing that was needed in this starting post is the one thing missing: the amount of alk and calcium consumed each day. It is just too hard to follow all the additions and measurements and water changes to know if it is actually excessive or not. If the demand is less than 2 dKH per day, I would not conclude it is excessive, and I'd just supplement more. SPS are certainly not the only users of alk and calcium. 2 dKH per day is not uncommon in a soft coral tank.

 

[shollis2814]

The one thing that was needed in this starting post is the one thing missing: the amount of alk and calcium consumed each day. It is just too hard to follow all the additions and measurements and water changes to know if it is actually excessive or not. If the demand is less than 2 dKH per day, I would not conclude it is excessive, and I'd just supplement more. SPS are certainly not the only users of alk and calcium. 2 dKH per day is not uncommon in a soft coral tank.

Thanks, Dr. Farley. I readily admit that is a piece of this puzzle that I do not know. I am trying to be more disciplined in my tank maintenance. I am hoping to establish that through more frequent testing and dosing. I want to add a dosing pump, but I know without that piece of information, I would potentially be doing more damage. The water changes should stop now because I was going through a mini-cycle with the tank change, but I got nitrates within a couple of days, and ammonia is now at zero. If magnesium is up today, I will start testing/dosing Ca and alk daily and tracking to try to determine the daily usage. I appreciate you chiming in.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Forget magnesium. It cannot deplete by more an 1 ppm per day in a tank like yours, and even then only if the alk and calcium demand is very high. It depletes about 10x slower than calcium. it never rises on its own, so any changes you see day to day that go up is just test error. Same for a drop since you cannot accurately detect a 1-10 ppm drop in magnesium.

 

[shollis2814]

Forget magnesium. It cannot deplete by more an 1 ppm per day in a tank like yours, and even then only if the alk and calcium demand is very high. It depletes about 10x slower than calcium. it never rises on its own, so any changes you see day to day that go up is just test error. Same for a drop since you cannot accurately detect a 1-10 ppm drop in magnesium.

Thank you again. Today's numbers were much better. First, I used an online calculator to determine how much salt I needed to raise my salinity from 1.022 to 1.024. I mixed that up and added it slowly over a few hours to be safe. I have the parts for a DIY ATO kit coming next week so that should help stabilize my salinity.

I hope I did the right thing here, but since I had my salinity set, and I knew I needed to dose, I took out more water than I needed to test, so I could add back a similar volume of salt water with my Ca and alk dosing. I know the directions say to mix in fresh water, but I didn't want to mess things up salinity wise.

Calcium before dosing was 345 and alk was 8. Since I have a few different calcium supplements, I made sure to add the same one I have been using with the exception of 1 night. I also kept the dosing the same. I dosed alk first, and then Ca after a couple of minutes.

Am I correct in thinking that if I can keep salinity the same, I should be able to dose the exact same supplement in the exact same amount for a few days and be able to calculate my daily usage so that I can set up a dosing system when the dosing pump comes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you again. Today's numbers were much better. First, I used an online calculator to determine how much salt I needed to raise my salinity from 1.022 to 1.024. I mixed that up and added it slowly over a few hours to be safe. I have the parts for a DIY ATO kit coming next week so that should help stabilize my salinity.

I hope I did the right thing here, but since I had my salinity set, and I knew I needed to dose, I took out more water than I needed to test, so I could add back a similar volume of salt water with my Ca and alk dosing. I know the directions say to mix in fresh water, but I didn't want to mess things up salinity wise.

Calcium before dosing was 345 and alk was 8. Since I have a few different calcium supplements, I made sure to add the same one I have been using with the exception of 1 night. I also kept the dosing the same. I dosed alk first, and then Ca after a couple of minutes.

Am I correct in thinking that if I can keep salinity the same, I should be able to dose the exact same supplement in the exact same amount for a few days and be able to calculate my daily usage so that I can set up a dosing system when the dosing pump comes?

yes, but it may take more than a few days to get a handle on calcium uptake since it is usually close to the uncertainty of a calcium kit when tested over a day or two.

IMO, I'd determine what alk is dosed to keep alk stable, and dose the balanced amount of calcium.

 

[shollis2814]

yes, but it may take more than a few days to get a handle on calcium uptake since it is usually close to the uncertainty of a calcium kit when tested over a day or two.

IMO, I'd determine what alk is dosed to keep alk stable, and dose the balanced amount of calcium.

OK, I got salinity stable. I tested on the 8th and got Ca 345 and alk 8 with a pH of 8.2. I dosed reef builder and reef advantage in proper ration amounts.

On the 9th, I tested 4 hours earlier than the 8th (I know the tank goes through phases during the day) and got alkalinity at 8.4, Calsium at 390, and pH at 8.0. I did not dose to see if I would get any drop.

Today, I got pH holding steady at 8.2, Alk up a bit at 8.9, and Ca dropped to 365. I was using Salifert test kits for Alk and Ca. So, according to your earlier post, I should not add Ca, since it was probably test kit inaccuracy since my alk is still climbing? My nitrates are about 30 ppm, so I will need to do a water change tonight anyway.

I hope I am not bothering you. I am just trying to understand and do this correctly. Zoas that haven't opened up since the tank leak las Friday (11/30) are finally opening up.