I've been in this hobby for a year now and I just cant seem to make it work. I can you the communities advice, as I'm clearly doing something wrong.

[rennjidk]

Thanks - having been involved with the hobby/industry since before internet forums were a thing, I disagree that blacklights were ever strongly pushed by stores or "Reefing guides" - they were certainly not "required". 'Actinic' lights sure, blacklights not so much.

I wasn't in the reefing world back then, but I have seen old publications and have heard other people talk about being sold blacklights from their LFS because they were "more powerful" or "replicated the sun". I can't remember which guest speaker off hand, but even someone from the most recent MACNA panel published on BRS brought it up in their lecture, so it definitely was a thing. I know that there were message boards and chat rooms in the late 90's where serious reef keepers discussed the science behind everything and a lot of them are here now, so I'm not discrediting them. All I'm saying is that reef keeping in the 90s were wild times and a lot of people just went to their LFS and bought whatever they sold them. Do you remember people using "throw away" fish like damsels to cycle their tank? That was a practice as well, which thankfully does not exist anymore.

Edit: It was not a MACNA panel, but Mr Saltwater's lecture at Aquashella. Here's the link. 2:45 is when he mentions it.

 

[elysics]

At 3 months, your tank has not yet matured. I believe it takes a minimum of 12 months for that too occur. It is a process the tank must go through or success will elude you. At the end of that period you will know where you stand and can figure out what should be dosed, if anything. During the first year, our nitrates were low but the phosphates were high. We fought green hair algae and then dinos. The dinos occurred because we tried too hard too stabilize the phosphates. We learned any changes using chemical additives must be made slowly. I now start by adding only 1/3 of the recommended dose. The algae was consuming the phosphates and probably the nitrates so testing was not showing accurate results for those nutrients in our tank but we did not know that. I also learned from this forum the dry rock was probably releasing some phosphate as well which will reduce naturally over time. We dosed MB7 and added copepods for diversity, but remember, the copepods need to be fed phytoplankton which increases nitrates. You have to let the tank work through all of these stages and it requires time & patience and this is one hobby that will test your patience. We concentrated on stabilizing the nitrates and phosphates during the first year. We only added a few soft and LPS corals so the water changes alone could keep these corals happy. At 18 months, the parameters have remained stable enough that we are now experimenting with sps which require higher nitrate but lower dkh levels than we previously maintained (I feel a headache coming on) . I see you are using Purigen which will polish your water but also reduces nitrates. Since your nitrates are bottoming out, stop the chaeto and the purigen and let the tank ride making necessary but small changes to increase your nitrates. You will have difficulty maintaining any sps corals at this time but I am not experienced enough to help you out with this but all of this dosing is not allowing your tank to stabilize. I will be the first to admit this can be a very difficult & frustrating hobby. I have felt like pulling my hair out on many occasions. Patience and perseverance is the key. Don't give up and always feel free to ask for help from this forum which I found contains a wealth of information. There is so much to learn. In the meantime, can you let us know what test kits you are using and how you test your salinity?

There's some truth to mature tanks being more stable and easier to deal with but as someone around here, can't remember who, said, it's not the tank that needs to mature, it's the person in front of it (or rather their skill, knowledge, and desperation to do what it takes)

And tests not showing the true nitrate and phosphates values when you have algae is wrong. Sure, there's a bunch sequestered away in their biomass that will be released again once they are dead. But they aren't dead now and the water is empty, so your corals starve. The response is to dose anyway, especially if it's phosphate, and manually remove algae and add more cleaning crew.

Yes that will make algae grow until the tank switches from being limited in whatever you are dosing to being limited in something else, but, especially with 0 phosphate, the choice is between algae growth and living corals, and stopping algae growth and dead corals.

 

[zaga]

I'm really struggling to keep corals alive, and though I've followed all the steps to success, everything seems to just slowly die. I'll post as much relevant information as I can starting with my reef journal:

The tank is 3 months old Nuvo 30L (30g) and started completely sterile with the exception of Ocean Direct sand and Aqua Forest reef mud. Salinity has been kept consistent at 34.5ppt using 2 different test methods and a Tunze ATO. Temperature is a constant 77.1F. PH is 7.9. The sump consists of filter floss pads, a chaeto fuge on 8 hours at night, Rox 0.8 carbon, and Purigen. Lighting is provided by 2 AI Primes running 11 hours a day (with 4 hours total ramp) at 8" off the water tuned to UV80/V80/RB72/B100/R10/G10/W10 which should be giving around 100 par based on other people's testing.

Dosing:
3ml All for Reef daily
3ml Cheato Gro weekly
2ml AB+ daily
5ml Microbactor 7 & Clean weekly
No3 and PO4 as needed

Feeding is a blend of Reef Frenzy Nano, Reef Roids, AB+, and Frozen Mysis in homemade cubes.

Source water is RODI with tested TDS 0.0 using 2 different meters. Salt is IO Reef Crystals. I do a 10% water change monthly.

Stocking: 2 Clowns, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Yellow Watchman Goby and Tiger PIstol Shrimp, 1 Banngai Cardinal, 1 Peppermint shrimp, 10 Astrea Turbo, 30 Dwarf Ceriths, 4 Red Legs, 10 Blue legs, 1 Trochus, 10 Nassarius.

I'm positive I'm not introducing anything into the tank. I always wear gloves and keep my hands out as much as possible. So far I've had 1 hammer die, 3 others that are very unhappy, acans receding, zoas constantly stressed/changing color/partially open, and 4 dead gonies.

I've convinced myself that I need more flow despite running 900gph through the return with 1/2" RFG's. I've ordered 2 600gph powerheads to combat this and I also made a video of the normal flow here:



That's about all I can think to add at this point. Any Ideas?

If you are worried about bottoming out your nutrients, why are you running your fuge for 8 hours a night?

Why run purigen when according to them: "Purigen® will remove organics before they can be converted by bacteria into ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, resulting in lowered nitrate concentrations over time, but it will not directly remove these chemicals from the water"

I am trying to really understand your train of thought because you are trying to do so much in such little time while your actions contradict each other. I am also trying to understand why you are running a 900gph return pump through a 30 gallon tank? 3 months in and now you decide to get powerheads?

 

[rennjidk]

If you are worried about bottoming out your nutrients, why are you running your fuge for 8 hours a night?

8 Hours is the minimum time suggested to light chaeto to keep it from dying. Even with low nutrients, i still need a nutrient export long term, because without one, ill have issues with high nutrients.

Why run purigen when according to them: "Purigen® will remove organics before they can be converted by bacteria into ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, resulting in lowered nitrate concentrations over time, but it will not directly remove these chemicals from the water"

I've been fish keeping for around 12 years and I've never once seen purigen effect nitrogen in a meaningful or detectable way. It is however really good at polishing the water and removing silicates.

I am trying to really understand your train of thought because you are trying to do so much in such little time while your actions contradict each other. I am also trying to understand why you are running a 900gph return pump through a 30 gallon tank? 3 months in and now you decide to get powerheads?

I wanted 30x flow and hoped I could get adequate flow with my return pump and rfg's. A 1000gph DC pump is the same price as a 500gph one, so I thought I could save some money on the build.

 

[averagesteve]

I wanted 30x flow and hoped I could get adequate flow with my return pump and rfg's. A 1000gph DC pump is the same price as a 500gph one, so I thought I could save some money on the build.

I could be wrong, but I think return pump flow and power head flow are different. Your return pump is returning water that has been filtered by socks, skimmer, fuge, and reactors like your purigen, the water is essentially cleaner when it returns to the tank. Powerheads are just blowing around the dirty tank water, which contains the micro organisms and other things that your corals need, that may be filtered out of the return pump water.

I could be completely wrong by this, and I'm not providing any data or research that's going to support this claim as I don't care to, it just seems like it makes sense. I also believe that looking at data and publications is only half of what it actually takes to be successful, and sometimes you just gotta figure stuff out for yourself.

 

[zaga]

8 Hours is the minimum time suggested to light chaeto to keep it from dying. Even with low nutrients, i still need a nutrient export long term, because without one, ill have issues with high nutrients.

I've been fish keeping for around 12 years and I've never once seen purigen effect nitrogen in a meaningful or detectable way. It is however really good at polishing the water and removing silicates.

I wanted 30x flow and hoped I could get adequate flow with my return pump and rfg's. A 1000gph DC pump is the same price as a 500gph one, so I thought I could save some money on the build.

Where is it suggested 8 hours a day? I've kept light on chaeto 4 hours a day and alternating days and the chaeto has been fine (with no added dosage).

12 years or experience or not, according to their website, Purigen indirectly affects nitrates. And doesn't the filter floss and carbon polish the water already?

You say you need a nutrient export long term but here you are creating an unsustainable cycle of stripping nutrients and then reintroducing them.

Why not take it step by step in trying to fix your situation:

- Remove the purigen and see how your tank reacts.
- Reduce the light time on the chaeto and see how your tank and chaeto respond

 

[rennjidk]

Where is it suggested 8 hours a day? I've kept light on chaeto 4 hours a day and alternating days and the chaeto has been fine (with no added dosage).

I made a post a while ago asking for a minimum light time for chaeto and that's what AlgaeBarn recommended.

Why not take it step by step in trying to fix your situation:

- Remove the purigen and see how your tank reacts.
- Reduce the light time on the chaeto and see how your tank and chaeto respond

I have, as I've said earlier in the thread. I pulled the chaeto and stopped dosing carbon sources. I took a baseline reading and I'm going to test again in 2 days. I'm hoping that my frags alone are consuming enough to offset the NO3 and PO4 production of my bioload. If they are not, and I'm seeing a large raise in nutrients, I'm looking into a more tunable approach to export such as a skimmer. I could benefit from the oxygenation and Ph boost as well.

 

[Thales]

I wasn't in the reefing world back then, but I have seen old publications and have heard other people talk about being sold blacklights from their LFS because they were "more powerful" or "replicated the sun". I can't remember which guest speaker off hand, but even someone from the most recent MACNA panel published on BRS brought it up in their lecture, so it definitely was a thing.

A thing yes, required, as you said initially, not so much. As a thing, it fell away very quickly - though it still comes up because bad ideas never really go away.

I know that there were message boards and chat rooms in the late 90's where serious reef keepers discussed the science behind everything and a lot of them are here now, so I'm not discrediting them. All I'm saying is that reef keeping in the 90s were wild times and a lot of people just went to their LFS and bought whatever they sold them.

People still do buy whatever is sold to them, both at LFS and online. The argument could be made that you are engaged in that via the additives and stuff you are doing with a new system.

Do you remember people using "throw away" fish like damsels to cycle their tank? That was a practice as well, which thankfully does not exist anymore.

Yes I remember, and it absolutely does still exist. I urge you to be careful about talking about the before times or current methodologies with authority when you have only have a years experience.

Feel free to ignore me, and have a good day.

 

[rennjidk]

12 years or experience or not, according to their website, Purigen indirectly affects nitrates. And doesn't the filter floss and carbon polish the water already?

Manufactures make all kinds of claims. Is it theoretically possible? Sure. Have I ever seen or heard of it actually working in a real world application? Nope, never. Not once.

 

[Hermie]

It absolutely is. You could theoretically go to any salt manufacturer of your choice, and aquire your salt mix without the salt added to it. You would mix it to the new recommended concentration and just add it to your tank. It would be the exact same. Any issues you solve by removing a volume of water from your tank and replacing it with a "new" volume of water are secondary to the argument and inconsequential (ie: nutrient and pollution dilution). There is no magical "x factor" that WCs provide, it just doesn't exist.

You know how I know you're full of it? You are saying all salt is the same yet in the same breadth you claim that people that say water changes are superior to dosing "have no idea what they are arguing about."

Part of me believes you made this whole thread just to prove people wrong when in fact you're the one with the struggling tank.

 

[DIFish]

Manufactures make all kinds of claims. Is it theoretically possible? Sure. Have I ever seen or heard of it actually working in a real world application? Nope, never. Not once.

Purigen does/can lower nitrates indirectly to a small extent. I have seen it myself in freshwater applications. That being said it works by removing organics before they breakdown into nitrate, not directly removing nitrate itself. Very minimal amounts will be removed so if you have already removed the chaeto that is probably the majority of your export. If you are still struggling to have nutrients in a few weeks I would remove the purigen, but I am doubtful they remove enough to have a significant impact.

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

Nitrate is an ion that has long dogged aquarists. It is typically formed in aquaria through the digestion of foods, and in many aquaria it builds up and can be difficult to keep at natural levels. In the past, many aquarists performed water changes with nitrate reduction as one of the primary...

www.reefedition.com

 

[zaga]

Manufactures make all kinds of claims. Is it theoretically possible? Sure. Have I ever seen or heard of it actually working in a real world application? Nope, never. Not once.

But you trust it to remove silicates? lol

 

[rennjidk]

You know how I know you're full of it? You are saying all salt is the same yet in the same breadth you claim that people that say water changes are superior to dosing "have no idea what they are arguing about."

Part of me believes you made this whole thread just to prove people wrong when in fact you're the one with the struggling tank.

I never once said that all salt mixes were the same. Each manufacturer uses wildly different blends and recipes to create different parameters once mixed. I said that they are ALL SALT WITH OTHER ADDITIVES and that a WC is not that different from dosing except for the extra water and salt. Don't miss quote me.

 

[rennjidk]

But you trust it to remove silicates? lol

I'm saying that any amount of organics it's able to pull from the water column before they are able to break down is negligible, especially over it's 6 month life span. It's only a tablespoon of media. There's a limit to what it can physically hold. Maybe a 1/4 of a mysis cube, if that?

 

[rennjidk]

Purigen does/can lower nitrates indirectly to a small extent. I have seen it myself in freshwater applications. That being said it works by removing organics before they breakdown into nitrate, not directly removing nitrate itself. Very minimal amounts will be removed so if you have already removed the chaeto that is probably the majority of your export. If you are still struggling to have nutrients in a few weeks I would remove the purigen, but I am doubtful they remove enough to have a significant impact.

I haven't personally seen it, but it's near depleted at this point anyways. I don't know why people are getting hung up on the purigen (not you) like the 3 month old tablespoon of it is crashing my tank, lol. I honestly think a lot of them are confusing it for products like Phosguard or GFO, which as you and I know it is definitely not. Its just a high surface area polymer that's a little finer than carbon that catches some of the stuff that it misses like silicates.

 

[Hermie]

I never once said that all salt mixes were the same. Each manufacturer uses wildly different blends and recipes to create different parameters once mixed. I said that they are ALL SALT WITH OTHER ADDITIVES and that a WC is not that different from dosing except for the extra water and salt. Don't miss quote me.

Don't "miss quote" yourself. Also learn what paraphrase means. Also learn what salt means.

 

[zaga]

I haven't personally seen it, but it's near depleted at this point anyways. I don't know why people are getting hung up on the purigen (not you) like the 3 month old tablespoon of it is crashing my tank, lol. I honestly think a lot of them are confusing it for products like Phosguard or GFO, which as you and I know it is definitely not. Its just a high surface area polymer that's a little finer than carbon that catches some of the stuff that it misses like silicates.

I'm not hung up on it. I am just trying to understand your tank as a whole. If I had a nutrient problem, I would have decreased the chaeto lighting schedule and removed the purigen and see how the tank responds.

Sure, purigen might have a minimal impact on organics but I would rather it not affect my organics at all than dose more stuff in the tank. And isn't phosguard the one that removes silica/ silicates?

 

[rennjidk]

I'm not hung up on it. I am just trying to understand your tank as a whole. If I had a nutrient problem, I would have decreased the chaeto lighting schedule and removed the purigen and see how the tank responds.

I don't even know why you were carbon dosing on top of everything else.

Neither did I, lol. I listed everything I was doing in my initial post and, unbeknownst to me, a lot of the products contained organic carbon. I honestly have tried to reduce lighting a couple of time but the chaeto was too efficient. Even a golf ball sized amount at 4 hours was driving nutrients down to near zero.

 

[rennjidk]

Don't "miss quote" yourself. Also learn what paraphrase means. Also learn what salt means.

Misquote. I'm not going to continue to argue with you anymore. You're pointing out typo's now as if that invalidates everything I've said. Grow up and move on.

 

[zaga]

Neither did I, lol. I listed everything I was doing in my initial post and, unbeknownst to me, a lot of the products contained organic carbon. I honestly have tried to reduce lighting a couple of time but the chaeto was too efficient. Even a golf ball sized amount at 4 hours was driving nutrients down to near zero.

I misread it and deleted it as you responded. Hopefully removing the chaeto will fix your nutrient problems.