Jaubert deep gravel as part of new system

[WillpoleReefers]

Hi all. As some may have seen I’m returning to reefing after some years out by designing a 1m cube tank based system. There is the opportunity to make a ground up sump design as part of this, I intend to build up the sump myself having found a great local glass supplier. I like simple sumps but was talking to a friend recently who inspired me to consider incorporating deep sand or gravel into my new setup. I’ve since read up on Jaubert‘s method, both here and online, including a nice overview by Julian Sprung. I don’t want to make a 100% Jaubert system, definitely want a skimmer, so plan is a hybrid with both. Sump will be approx 80 cm/32 in sq, maybe 40cm/15 in deep. I’d like to partition it so the back part contains a deep gravel bed, medium grit, as per Jaubert‘s specifications including the plenum below. There would be a weir overflow into the front part of the sump. I’m thinking 80x35cm as the footprint of the Jaubert part at the back. Set up with a higher water level it will also add some water volume to the system.

Anyway what to people think, useful addition to the system or witchcraft? Big enough to make a difference with an 1000L /250 USG tank? Opinions either way are welcome.

Steve

 

[vlangel]

Hi Steve, I can give my opinion on part of what you are thinking. I have had tanks for more than 20 years and was mentored by a fish store owner who set up a lot of tanks. Eventually I got into maintenancing those accounts. Anyway, my boss/mentor usually set up deep sand beds. They required less maintenance than shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks and allowed more animals. Although my boss passed away in 2007, I still know of some of his tanks that are still in operation today in their original set up. One is a friend of mine's and her tank was set up around 2001-2002 and it houses the largest emporer angel that I have ever seen which is also coming on 20 years old.

Anyway, because of what I saw working at the lfs, I am a fan of deep sand beds. I have tried shallow and bare bottom but a deep sand bed is by far my preference. My current tank actually has a deep sand bed on the right and a shallow sand bed on the left. The tank was set up at the end of 2016 and is now developing the food webs that can support things like coco worms and scallops, both of which seem to be flourishing in my tank.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. And here is a pic of my display.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'm not a fan of deep sand beds because I think there are easier ways to control nutrients. If I were to decide there was a need, a bucket works just fine. I would NOT put the DSB in the sump or the display tank, but in a remote vessel (Bucket) so it could be taken offline if necessary without too much hassle.

If I were going to put anything in the sump, it would bube live rble rock. It performs the same functions as a DSB, adds diversity, and provides a home for Pods. It provides a supply of rocks to use for fragging or filling in spaces in the reef. Finally, should you want to remove the rocks, it is easy to do.

 

[Reign1]

I too have been doing SW aquariums (and also began servicing them) since about 99' and also was a student of the Modified berlin method. At that time the DSB, Jaubert/plenum was particularly of interest to me. I do believe that initial setup these methods stabilize/mature closed systems more quickly. Technology and methods have changed drastically over the last 10-15 years and so has my opinion. In my experience these types of sandbeds/plenums long term become sinkholes for detritus/nutrients and personally the media should be changed out once it is older. This is my opinion of course as a DSB can be safer than a plenum. Plenums were considered to be a ticking bomb as if plenum is breached (by some freakish way) and it degasses it can be disastrous (yes I am old school and know that correct plenum should have 2 layer of screens but I have personally seen it happen).
Taking me back man.. I think at my dads I still have a sump full of southdown LOL

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I'm not a fan of deep sand beds because I think there are easier ways to control nutrients. If I were to decide there was a need, a bucket works just fine. I would NOT put the DSB in the sump or the display tank, but in a remote vessel (Bucket) so it could be taken offline if necessary without too much hassle.

If I were going to put anything in the sump, it would bube live rble rock. It performs the same functions as a DSB, adds diversity, and provides a home for Pods. It provides a supply of rocks to use for fragging or filling in spaces in the reef. Finally, should you want to remove the rocks, it is easy to do.

Thanks good to hear opinions both ways. I should add that it will be easy to access the back of the sump as the sides of the cube stand will be removeable panels. So it is very easy to do this as a trial and if I was not happy at any stage I could dig out all the gravel almost as easily as in a free standing tank. Have not ruled out some live rock spaced above the gravel bed in the back part of the sump.

Steve

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I too have been doing SW aquariums (and also began servicing them) since about 99' and also was a student of the Modified berlin method. At that time the DSB, Jaubert/plenum was particularly of interest to me. I do believe that initial setup these methods stabilize/mature closed systems more quickly. Technology and methods have changed drastically over the last 10-15 years and so has my opinion. In my experience these types of sandbeds/plenums long term become sinkholes for detritus/nutrients and personally the media should be changed out once it is older. This is my opinion of course as a DSB can be safer than a plenum. Plenums were considered to be a ticking bomb as if plenum is breached (by some freakish way) and it degasses it can be disastrous (yes I am old school and know that correct plenum should have 2 layer of screens but I have personally seen it happen).
Taking me back man.. I think at my dads I still have a sump full of southdown LOL

Cool. Glad to take you back in time. Yes I am aware of H2S risks. The advantage of a separate sump based plenum area is that at least there is a chance of venting much of any gas outside the main tank.

Steve

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Hi Steve, I can give my opinion on part of what you are thinking. I have had tanks for more than 20 years and was mentored by a fish store owner who set up a lot of tanks. Eventually I got into maintenancing those accounts. Anyway, my boss/mentor usually set up deep sand beds. They required less maintenance than shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks and allowed more animals. Although my boss passed away in 2007, I still know of some of his tanks that are still in operation today in their original set up. One is a friend of mine's and her tank was set up around 2001-2002 and it houses the largest emporer angel that I have ever seen which is also coming on 20 years old.

Anyway, because of what I saw working at the lfs, I am a fan of deep sand beds. I have tried shallow and bare bottom but a deep sand bed is by far my preference. My current tank actually has a deep sand bed on the right and a shallow sand bed on the left. The tank was set up at the end of 2016 and is now developing the food webs that can support things like coco worms and scallops, both of which seem to be flourishing in my tank.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. And here is a pic of my display.

Looks like it’s working in your tank!

 

[vlangel]

Looks like it’s working in your tank!

Thanks Steve, so far so good. My tank is relatively young in comparison to the other examples I shared. The fact that I know of multiple tanks with decades old DSBs that are running great and I do not know of even one that went south speaks to me that they are a viable option.

 

[Coinzmans Reef]

I have had both types DSB and Plenums (with two screens) by far much less maintenance compared to my shallow sand bed I have today. I have actually been removing the sand and putting it in the sump. Normally I would use very fine grain sand but I got talked into a heavy grain of aragonite sand mix. The algae loves to grow on the chunky pieces. The algae gets so bad it matts up.

1991-2004 As I recall and not so well.

 

[Esox]

Anyway what to people think?

I think you should do it.

I was a kid without the money for expensive gear and no Internet to seek answers when I set up my first saltwater tank in the '80s. Never had a problem with water quality or algae in the years that tank ran. What I know now is that I had inadvertently set up a slow-moving plenum (deep gravel bed over undergravel filter plates with an ancient air pump that produced a lot more noise than air).

All my tanks since then have eventually become problematic, whether it be several months or several years later. Shallow sand bed, bare-bottom, wet/dry, sump, media rectors, UV, protein skimmers, endless water changes, distilled water, RO water, and the latest greatest mechanical filters . . . didn't seem to matter.

I'm about a month away from starting a sumpless 56-gallon build with an in-tank plenum. Going back to my roots and trusting in the wisdom of those hobbyists who've rocked the plenums for decades. I'll add accessories if need be, but I'm hoping to avoid becoming a gadget collector again.

Good luck with your build. I'm looking forward to seeing here on r2r!

 

[c-horse]

Hi all. As some may have seen I’m returning to reefing after some years out by designing a 1m cube tank based system. There is the opportunity to make a ground up sump design as part of this, I intend to build up the sump myself having found a great local glass supplier. I like simple sumps but was talking to a friend recently who inspired me to consider incorporating deep sand or gravel into my new setup. I’ve since read up on Jaubert‘s method, both here and online, including a nice overview by Julian Sprung. I don’t want to make a 100% Jaubert system, definitely want a skimmer, so plan is a hybrid with both. Sump will be approx 80 cm/32 in sq, maybe 40cm/15 in deep. I’d like to partition it so the back part contains a deep gravel bed, medium grit, as per Jaubert‘s specifications including the plenum below. There would be a weir overflow into the front part of the sump. I’m thinking 80x35cm as the footprint of the Jaubert part at the back. Set up with a higher water level it will also add some water volume to the system.

Anyway what to people think, useful addition to the system or witchcraft? Big enough to make a difference with an 1000L /250 USG tank? Opinions either way are welcome.

Steve

Steve,

I am researching the Jaubert/Moanco system today and came across an interesting artcle about a mod of it.

Jaubert’s Method, The ‘Monaco System,’ Defined And Refined

In this article I will focus on the simple method developed by Professor Jean Jaubert for establishing a reef aquarium.

reefs.com

Basically:

1) do not use any sand or gravel less than 2 mm in diameter. water need to flow slowly through the plenum.
2) do not put anything on the gravel bed, like rocks
3) you only need two screens if there are sand digging fish or shrimps in the tank with the plenum.

 

[vlangel]

Anyway, because of what I saw working at the lfs, I am a fan of deep sand beds. I have tried shallow and bare bottom but a deep sand bed is by far my preference. My current tank actually has a deep sand bed on the right and a shallow sand bed on the left. The tank was set up at the end of 2016 and is now developing the food webs that can support things like coco worms and scallops, both of which seem to be flourishing in my tank.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. And here is a pic of my display.

I'm about a month away from starting a sumpless 56-gallon build with an in-tank plenum. Going back to my roots and trusting in the wisdom of those hobbyists who've rocked the plenums for decades. I'll add accessories if need be, but I'm hoping to avoid becoming a gadget collector again.

Good luck with your build. I'm looking forward to seeing here on r2r!

Hi Esox, is your new 56 gallon tank going to be a column tank? I was just curious because that is what my tank is, which why I posted the pic. The 24" height is good for having enough room to have a DSB and/or plenum. This has been my favorite tank of the 4 that I have had.

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I think you should do it.

I was a kid without the money for expensive gear and no Internet to seek answers when I set up my first saltwater tank in the '80s. Never had a problem with water quality or algae in the years that tank ran. What I know now is that I had inadvertently set up a slow-moving plenum (deep gravel bed over undergravel filter plates with an ancient air pump that produced a lot more noise than air).

All my tanks since then have eventually become problematic, whether it be several months or several years later. Shallow sand bed, bare-bottom, wet/dry, sump, media rectors, UV, protein skimmers, endless water changes, distilled water, RO water, and the latest greatest mechanical filters . . . didn't seem to matter.

I'm about a month away from starting a sumpless 56-gallon build with an in-tank plenum. Going back to my roots and trusting in the wisdom of those hobbyists who've rocked the plenums for decades. I'll add accessories if need be, but I'm hoping to avoid becoming a gadget collector again.

Good luck with your build. I'm looking forward to seeing here on r2r!

Thanks for sharing your experience. I guess the challenge is setting something up that works in the very long term. My previous tanks were operating for a handful of years only, I’m hoping for more here. I will post the build here of course. Good luck with your new tank!
Steve

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Steve,

I am researching the Jaubert/Moanco system today and came across an interesting artcle about a mod of it.

Jaubert’s Method, The ‘Monaco System,’ Defined And Refined

In this article I will focus on the simple method developed by Professor Jean Jaubert for establishing a reef aquarium.

reefs.com

Basically:

1) do not use any sand or gravel less than 2 mm in diameter. water need to flow slowly through the plenum.
2) do not put anything on the gravel bed, like rocks
3) you only need two screens if there are sand digging fish or shrimps in the tank with the plenum.

Thanks, yes I had read that article, useful! I don’t plan to use fine sand, I will stick to the Jaubert recommended mid sized grit. Aragonite I guess,

Steve

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

Hey Steve, I’ll also give a thumbs up for Jaubert systems. Set up both in tank and large remote in 90’s. Both were stable and easy to get going, although traditional live rock was used. Have never attempted with a dry rock start.

I found the remote system was particularly good for keeping clams in the display.

Was able to get a species of micro hermit from West Australia back then and they scurried around the remote sand bed scavenging any surface detritus.

Both systems were taken down due to house relocation, the remote system ran very well for around 5 yrs. Never had any of the reported issues that put them out of favour.

Good luck with it, great to see reefers exploring some of the older methods.

 

[Esox]

Hi Esox, is your new 56 gallon tank going to be a column tank? I was just curious because that is what my tank is, which why I posted the pic. The 24" height is good for having enough room to have a DSB and/or plenum. This has been my favorite tank of the 4 that I have had.

Yes it is! They're hard to find these days. I built a new stand for my original 56 column, ended up having to replace the tank, too, and when I went to pick up a new one, discovered they don't make 'em anymore. After a couple of frustrating months deliberating what to do with the now useless new stand, I found out my LFS had a 56 collecting dust in their storeroom. Talk about a stroke of luck.

Your tank looks fantastic, by the way. It's my new inspiration!

 

[vlangel]

Yes it is! They're hard to find these days. I built a new stand for my original 56 column, ended up having to replace the tank, too, and when I went to pick up a new one, discovered they don't make 'em anymore. After a couple of frustrating months deliberating what to do with the now useless new stand, I found out my LFS had a 56 collecting dust in their storeroom. Talk about a stroke of luck.

Your tank looks fantastic, by the way. It's my new inspiration!

Wow, I did not know that they are getting hard to acquire these days. I guess with so many aquarists wanting rimless that full braced tanks are out of vogue not to mention that most reefers do not want to aquascape a tall tank.

Thank you so much for the very kind words about my tank. It has all the common easy stuff so doesn't seem all that special. I guess its the maturity of the coral and macroalgae that set it apart, along with the 3 tiered sandbed.

 

[zoomonster]

I used to run that on a 90g I had years ago, when the whole Berlin thing was the rage, and it worked great. I built a PVC plenum, covered it with nylon mesh with a downpipe in the corner where I pumped some return water in through the whole plenum with small holes drilled in the plenum. Now just running ~3-4" inch sand bed in my 200g.

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Hey Steve, I’ll also give a thumbs up for Jaubert systems. Set up both in tank and large remote in 90’s. Both were stable and easy to get going, although traditional live rock was used. Have never attempted with a dry rock start.

I found the remote system was particularly good for keeping clams in the display.

Was able to get a species of micro hermit from West Australia back then and they scurried around the remote sand bed scavenging any surface detritus.

Both systems were taken down due to house relocation, the remote system ran very well for around 5 yrs. Never had any of the reported issues that put them out of favour.

Good luck with it, great to see reefers exploring some of the older methods.

Thanks for the supportive comment. The idea is very much an exploration and as said I am not discarding more recent ideas, as the plenum chamber would be separate I can have live rock in the tank no issue. Your comments on relocation take me back to the sad loss of my own system years ago. I had a great two tank system for a number of years that was running fine. I had a huge derasa clam, corals included healthy pink Acropora and lots of interesting stuff. I relocated the whole lot into a new tank following a move and something went wrong, not fully sure what, anyway that was at the time the end of my first spell in reefkeeping. Don’t want that to happen again,

Steve

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I used to run that on a 90g I had years ago, when the whole Berlin thing was the rage, and it worked great. I built a PVC plenum, covered it with nylon mesh with a downpipe in the corner where I pumped some return water in through the whole plenum with small holes drilled in the plenum. Now just running ~3-4" inch sand bed in my 200g.

Yes, still thinking about plumbing. I certainly won’t return all the flow over the plenum chamber. Choices are bleeding off some return flow vs a manifold feed into the chamber from the pumped side. I guess the second is easier to regulate reliably

Steve