Kessil Lights: Why is everyone selling them?

[HolisticBear]

@dragon99 made a great point about the OP's point.

Remember that all of BRS number are low up to the point they discovered that the LiCor was not accurate.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a PUR or some other difference between Kessil + other guys. If everyone else is using the same base Cree or whatever LED, it's easy to compare. If someone else is using a differently technology, then maybe its' an Apple vs Oranges. One is 200 PAR at 60% PUR while the other is 133 at 90% PUR resulting is same color to the coral or something like that. I don't want to totally change the topic and I'm going out on a limb. It's a bit like photography where people argue about lens numbers all the time, when it's the photos that matters.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Cant speak for everyone else but I LOVED how they looked. They are very close to what snorkeling looks like in my opinion. I keep some sps and just got tons of shading with the kessils. I also didn't know that turning up the whites turns down the overall par. I noticed a lot of things stretching for the light and thought 100/100 was max par. 100 intensity and blue is the most par. I couldn't keep zoas alive and overall things weren't doing well.

To achieve what I wanted from the kessils, it would have taken several more fixtures on my tank. For the money I wasn't ready to go that route. I considered going back to mh but opted for dimmable T5.

Is there some evidence you can show of this.

Doesn't make sense if you are using none of the whites giving you the most PAR.

Would think both on 100 Percent would give you the most PAR.

Anybody actually test this with a PAR Meter?

 

[phillygeeks]

I switched to having 2 - a360w's as the primary light source on my 57g tank to a 6 bulb T5 fixture with the Kessils providing supplementary blue light and shimmer. At the time I switched the tank was probably about 7 months old and things were just stagnant. There was definite shading which was bothersome but even corals that were getting the strongest light were not doing much.

Ultimately, I think my decision was partially correct, but also flawed. I do believe that the a360w lights do have significant issues with shading which is why even now I would not stick with those as a sole light source. The problem was, as a very new reefer, I had the whole make sure your nutrients are low mantra stuck in my head. At the time my nitrates unreadable on the NYOS test and I wasn't testing for Phos at the time. When I added the T5's there was certainly noticeable growth that I hadn't seen before. However, shortly after everything stalled again and then all corals started to die. Other things I noticed at the time was the micro-brittle stars disappeared, the occasional small brown flat worm disappeared, other small critters had disappeared. I think the growth induced by the T5's pushed my nutrient depleted tank over the edge. What I was left with was a tank with dead or dying corals and a monoculture of some brown slime algae with nitrates -0 and Phos -0. Now that I have read quite a lot and allowed my tank to get a little "dirtier" things have rebounded and some corals are now thriving and the smaller fauna have returned, as well.

Long story short: I think I sold mostly due my inexperience as a very new reefer and blaming most of my troubles on the light, rather than starving my tank. That being said, I wouldn't go back to the a360w's as a sole light source again due to the shading and I believe the T5's provided significantly more noticeable growth in the period before my tank essentially crashed

 

[bif24701]

@dragon99 made a great point about the OP's point.



I wouldn't be surprised if there is a PUR or some other difference between Kessil + other guys. If everyone else is using the same base Cree or whatever LED, it's easy to compare. If someone else is using a differently technology, then maybe its' an Apple vs Oranges. One is 200 PAR at 60% PUR while the other is 133 at 90% PUR resulting is same color to the coral or something like that. I don't want to totally change the topic and I'm going out on a limb. It's a bit like photography where people argue about lens numbers all the time, when it's the photos that matters.

Well it's not quite like that but could be some differences.

All of BRS lighting data is compatible to its self but not actual. They were all tested the same way with the same LiCor error. Though the numbers are not actual they can be compared to other BRS numbers.

 

[HolisticBear]

Well it's not quite like that but could be some differences.

All of BRS lighting data is compatible to its self but not actual. They were all tested the same way with the same LiCor error. Though the numbers are not actual they can be compared to other BRS numbers.

The numbers are comparable. The issue is whether the PAR number fully captures light and whether the measurement device consistently measures PAR from different light sources (cree led vs kessil tech). It's possible PAR captures everything, test device is good, Kessil is simply much weaker and Kessil speaks marking mumbo-jumbo, or maybe there is something more to light than PAR.

What I was trying to say (poorly) is that I haven't committed to either of those sides, but clearly some people believe one side with no doubt.

 

[skim]

Well I love my Kessil 360we and 150 tuna suns 10000K and my 150 Amazons all seem to do as they are suppose to. I too love my BOSE 901's series VI, 201's, AM 5's and headphones and Acoustic Wave music System II.

 

[GoVols]

I'm holding out for the new 12" long, dual point source, Kessil AP550's.

 

[brett_schn]

I'm holding out for the new 12" long, dual point source, Kessil AP550's.

When will that be released and what about pricing

 

[GoVols]

When will that be released and what about pricing

About the same time that the new radion G5's come out and $750 per unit.

 

[brett_schn]

About the same time that the new radion G5's come out and $750 per unit.

Ok I have no Clue when the g5s come out but where do u get this info

 

[GoVols]

Ok I have no Clue when the g5s come out but where do u get this info

One can dream...

 

[Fritzhamer]

Is there some evidence you can show of this.

Doesn't make sense if you are using none of the whites giving you the most PAR.

Would think both on 100 Percent would give you the most PAR.

Anybody actually test this with a PAR Meter?

I'm on my phone on vacation or I'd post links. I believe it was the brstv investigates where they posted spectral data. Could also have been other sites and perhaps kessil's site. I thought it was common knowledge that the mostly blue spectral wave we all know (the max usable by corals wave) was what Kessil went for with their lights. This however is really blue which isn't to everyone's taste. They decided to allow people to add in red and other parts of the spectrum but the choice blueish wave never goes away and doesn't change. It's just adding in other parts of the spectrum. I believe it was Ryan at BRS that showed this as well and theorized lower PUR as a result.

 

[GoVols]

@brett_schn
If Kessil made an 12" long say... AP550 to compete with G4's and the Mitra's 7's.
Do you think Kessil would making a killing in sells?

 

[Scurvy]

I switched to having 2 - a360w's as the primary light source on my 57g tank to a 6 bulb T5 fixture with the Kessils providing supplementary blue light and shimmer. At the time I switched the tank was probably about 7 months old and things were just stagnant. There was definite shading which was bothersome but even corals that were getting the strongest light were not doing much.

Ultimately, I think my decision was partially correct, but also flawed. I do believe that the a360w lights do have significant issues with shading which is why even now I would not stick with those as a sole light source. The problem was, as a very new reefer, I had the whole make sure your nutrients are low mantra stuck in my head. At the time my nitrates unreadable on the NYOS test and I wasn't testing for Phos at the time. When I added the T5's there was certainly noticeable growth that I hadn't seen before. However, shortly after everything stalled again and then all corals started to die. Other things I noticed at the time was the micro-brittle stars disappeared, the occasional small brown flat worm disappeared, other small critters had disappeared. I think the growth induced by the T5's pushed my nutrient depleted tank over the edge. What I was left with was a tank with dead or dying corals and a monoculture of some brown slime algae with nitrates -0 and Phos -0. Now that I have read quite a lot and allowed my tank to get a little "dirtier" things have rebounded and some corals are now thriving and the smaller fauna have returned, as well.

Long story short: I think I sold mostly due my inexperience as a very new reefer and blaming most of my troubles on the light, rather than starving my tank. That being said, I wouldn't go back to the a360w's as a sole light source again due to the shading and I believe the T5's provided significantly more noticeable growth in the period before my tank essentially crashed

My tank turned a year old about 3 weeks ago and I lived your experiece to a tee. I sold the 360, bought a four bulb ati and modded on two 160's for blues and shimmer but until i muddied the water lighting changes didnt make much of a difference.

We could all use the same fixtures with the exact same schedules yet still have very different results. Theres too many gorgeous Kessil lit tanks out there for anyone to argue they cant grow this or that coral.

 

[brett_schn]

@brett_schn
If Kessil made an 12" long say... AP550 to compete with G4's and the Mitra's 7's.
Do you think Kessil would making a killing in sells?

Honestly if it was in the $500-$600 range it would sell like crazy I think. Many people love the kessil shimmer but they don’t like the price. If I had the money I would go with radions though

 

[Reefcowboy]

I have had them, I still consider them weak, but happy you enjoy them. A very nice tank, and for 22g I would assume they are plenty powerful. What are the dimensions of that 22g?

I have found I like for my acros to be in 300 par of led light minimum, with 500 producing more color changes. That number is what I have personally found experimenting with kessils, Chinese BB, radions and AI. Kessils have a hard time hitting that number at the depth I put my acros. A160 puts out 40w, it's nice light but Aka weak. However here is where I like my other kessils:

Ive owned two A160's supplementing my Mh's. Their blues are unmatched, simply beautiful. I remember however when I would leave the Metal halide off(250 watt over a 36" 57 gal tank) and upped all power with the kessills, I would scratch my head how would some people keep sps with them. The tank looked very dim.

The AP700 is newer tech with more positive results. The A360's were the latest tech 4 or more years ago. There are newer leds out there that have better spread giving better results IMO.

The Tuna Sun kessils are absolutely fantastic. The shimmer they give planted tanks is outstanding, especially with such beautiful discus like the pic!

 

[minus9]

Ive owned two A160's supplementing my Mh's. Their blues are unmatched, simply beautiful. I remember however when I would leave the Metal halide off(250 watt over a 36" 57 gal tank) and upped all power with the kessills, I would scratch my head how would some people keep sps with them. The tank looked very dim.

The AP700 is newer tech with more positive results. The A360's were the latest tech 4 or more years ago. There are newer leds out there that have better spread giving better results IMO.

The Tuna Sun kessils are absolutely fantastic. The shimmer they give planted tanks is outstanding, especially with such beautiful discus like the pic!

It's the perceived brightness of Kessil's that's misleading, but to the animals, it's all the energy they need. It's all about the spectrum, not the perceived brightness. I've been growing sps for the past 2 1/2 years with Kessil's, using them from the start of my tank. Also, the only MH's back in the day were 5.5k or 6.5k bulbs, which were supplemented with actinic VHO's. I remember when 14k bulbs first came out, a lot of people thought they were too blue, seems funny now.
The other thing to consider with single point led's, they have a very focused or directional beam, so the light doesn't get pushed in all directions like T5 or MH's.
I would have to say that this has turned into quite the discussion, which is good for all involved and anyone reading.

 

[GoVols]

I've have ran Kessil's off and on since 2012 when the a350w's first came out.
The Kessil Logic is a lot better than the a350's but the color balance is a lot tighter.
I have grown and still grow SPS with Kessil's.
I would have to say that MH/T5 is still the gold standard.There are certain species of coral and inverts that just don't do well under anybody's led's. The closest thing maybe the Philip's Coral care to MH/T5.
Lighting is only one of many factors to healthy corals but I have to give kudo's to Kessil on a great product it it fits ones tank specs.
When it comes down to led lighting. There is no one best, just like protein skimmers. Only ones opinion.
I run a Kessil/T5 hybird and if I had to go all led today. Then the GHL Mitra's would be a better fit for my tanks dimensions then any of the Kessil's that are on the market today and I'd take the GHL's over Radions any day of the week but that's JMO.

This is a nice discussion as @minus9 just said and I hope we can all keep it civil.

Regards, GoVols

 

[GoVols]

(lol)
Just got home with our 19 year old daughter and the "Wonder Woman" movie is really good.

 

[Joeganja]

I always use this chart thanks to aqua illumination.

So for the same price you can get more par, more spread, a better light build and more innovative.

Even the AI Prime HD puts the kessil to shame. Sure the kessil has the shimmer and the ability to show coral off but I think that's where it stops.

So the question is this. Why even buy it in the first place? Not saying they are bad lights but take this into consideration. It's one light source so there is shadowing yes, it's a $400 light that has to have a separate controller unlike prime HD, and it seems like these lights get passed more than black boxes do. I had an 160we in a lagoon 25 and sure it looked nice but it didn't grow well. That's my experience. So the price you pay for a kessil you can get a light that's 5x better for the money and will grow corals much better and have upgraded features.