Kessil Penetration

[nbagnardi]

350 PAR is only about 17,000 lux.

It's on the low side, but stony corals (even SPS) are definitely doable in that range. (I'm doin it @ around 10K lux.)

Going from 120º to 90º at the same power should be good for a 25% bump all by itself.

How do you measure lux in the water?

 

[mcarroll]

This is 3-360we on a 20" deep tank. Sps grows on sand less bottom with ease. I'm selling these 3 as I'm upgrading tanks soon and wanted to try something else. Most of my corals grow like weeds in my tank.

What are the other dimensions - how much area are you covering with those three?

Any chance you know your peak PAR or lux measurements or if not would you be willing to do post #12 too?

(I dig your taste in corals!)

 

[mcarroll]

How do you measure lux in the water?

I must have some kind of genetic predisposition against a brief answer... :D

I only measure at the water surface.

Primarily because I have a regular (non-waterproof) lux meter and a (non-waterproof) smartphone to use for measurements.

But also because I haven't needed to measure below the surface. (Folks have waterproofed their sensors....but that's a whole other project! Again...I haven't needed this so far.)

Here's some explanation.

A quick reference just cuz: :)

• 100,000 lux = 2000 PAR = 1000 W/m2 = "direct sun" at sea level.
• Photosynthetic corals are known to survive down to 1% of that, or 1000 lux.
• Many stony corals seem to be able to grow between 5,000 and 10,000 lux.
• Lighting levels above this, for what seems to me like most species, seem to be "extra" - going toward faster healing or growth, etc.
• At some point around/above 80,000 lux, light becomes a stress due to managing the side-effects of photosynthesis.

It's not too hard to infer within a certain degree of likelihood what's going on x number of inches down (and much too complex to actually know).

But not only that!

Thanks to the awesomeness of zooxanthellate (sp?) corals, there's a wide margin of acceptable lighting levels - comfortably from around 20,000 lux to 80,000 lux for what seems like most corals we keep.

The only requirement seems to be a more objective "eye" than our own - which is terrible at judging light levels like this.

So measuring with a lux meter at the surface seems to be enough. :)

 

[mcarroll]

[170k] is the reading in the center, maybe 6" from the fixture.....I'm prob about 2-3" off of the water surface, a little nervous with the phone being too close to the water [...]

Pretty strange...must be an effect of the lens and being so close. How far out from directly under the fixture do you have to get before it drops to under 100,000? (Keeping the camera angled at the light for a maximal reading.)

 

[nbagnardi]

Pretty strange...must be an effect of the lens and being so close. How far out from directly under the fixture do you have to get before it drops to under 100,000? (Keeping the camera angled at the light for a maximal reading.)

I used an actual par meter for my readings. An apogee quantum to be exact.

 

[billwill]

Right that's what I meant by shadows. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the light, I am sorry I gave that impression. It is not working for my application. I want SPS and this light can not penetrate the tank for SPS. So my question was, should I try another kessil, maybe with two they can reach, or switch lights on my small budget?

If this is your tank, then I'd say that aquascape looks great for a single 360WE. I've got two on my 24" tall 90 and can easily grow sps anywhere in the tank. I would say your light source is not the issue. A wider black box led would give you better spread and less shadowing though.

 

[klesel]

Got a kessil sky blue 150 over my 29 cube and sps all over and have no problem growing or maintaining them for 8 months now don't know why everyone thinks you can't keep sps with a kessil . You might not be having a problem with the lighting there are a ton of other things going on that you can't keep sps happy besides a light .

 

[FishLvR]

Hey Devi here. I didn't realize I had two accounts sorry about that. So thanks for all the help. They just came out with a new gooseneck so I bought it. I'm going to download the app and see if I can borrow a par meter. Its just that right right/back tower section that seems to be an issue. I can get creative in placement. I really like my scape and I'm loathe to change it even though that would be easier. I'm going to stick with the one and maybe add a 160 later just for that little area. OK I'll post later with some readings. Also, I have that danged to hell jbj glass top on. I hate it but if my cat decides to he will jump in. That stupid glass top saved my butt twice with that cat. Also it helps in summer with evaporation. Thinking of building the screen, but ugh...aesthetics.

 

[nbagnardi]

Hey Devi here. I didn't realize I had two accounts sorry about that. So thanks for all the help. They just came out with a new gooseneck so I bought it. I'm going to download the app and see if I can borrow a par meter. Its just that right right/back tower section that seems to be an issue. I can get creative in placement. I really like my scape and I'm loathe to change it even though that would be easier. I'm going to stick with the one and maybe add a 160 later just for that little area. OK I'll post later with some readings. Also, I have that ****** to hell jbj glass top on. I hate it but if my cat decides to he will jump in. That stupid glass top saved my butt twice with that cat. Also it helps in summer with evaporation. Thinking of building the screen, but ugh...aesthetics.

i hear you totally about aesthetics! but it can work and keep your prized possession in but its going to allow much support for a frisky feline. also i shot you a message on the other account about a kessil 360we i have for sale. check it out.

 

[FishLvR]

OK on it. Thanks! Your screen looks nice. Build one for me? Hahahha.

 

[nbagnardi]

OK on it. Thanks! Your screen looks nice. Build one for me? Hahahha.

if you're near Albany NY, absolutely! i actually had fun doing this

 

[Eckolancer]

What are the other dimensions - how much area are you covering with those three?

Any chance you know your peak PAR or lux measurements or if not would you be willing to do post #12 too?

(I dig your taste in corals!)

Tank is 48"longX26"wideX20"deep

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@saltyfilmfolks has been experimenting with that function. That's an additional usage that I hadn't even considered. :) Definitely something I'll be experimenting with just to see how it goes.]

To a large degree, as long as you're "doing it right" above the water line, you can presume everything underneath is alright.

This means covering the tank with something like 20,000-80,000 lux. It can be that simple. :)



As in almost 200,000 lux? Double check that one...it's not impossible, but that's definitely in need of throttling back if it's the real case.

Most corals start stressing from the side-effects of photosynthesis above 80,000-100,000 lux...some corals deal with that better than others. 200,000 would definitely cause problems.

Is it possible the readings could have been 20,000 lux, 6,500 lux and 5,000 lux? There's often a "x10" or "x100" designation on the display, so make sure to account for that.

FYI, corals can survive as low as 1000 lux.

Many corals reach their compensation point (grow) at around 5,000-10,000 lux. I have one SPS tank that reads around 10,000 lux and it does fine.

So don't be worried if your readings turn out to be at the other end of the range! :)

In reading light there are 2 basic ways to measure, incedent(light falling on) ans reflected(bounced into). A true lux meter has a flat white disk, for indecent reading. a par meter has a ball to read the light from all around it(so does my meter I can change to either one) . I also have a spot meter, it reads the light reflected off of a surface and into the sensor. (like a camera does) the app obviously uses the latter method. thus its sometimes finky and misleading readings. @170,000 lux you are reading the source, the actual light into the camera and not the amount falling on the surface.
Thus Mcarrol and I both always recommend an actual meter.
Of the 14 I have tested 7 iphone 7 android these were the 2 that worked the best as the average the light into the sensor best.

In reflected mode (spot meter) you can point the meter at an object and get a very accurate reading, it does naturally depend on how dark the object is. white sand is clearly the best thing to meter in the tank.

Lux is a very basic reading and a guideline. @17000 lux you can exceed 300 par depending on the fixture itself. keep that in mind.
For Many Sps 300 par seems to be an adequate number but so far it seems many corals need substantially more. I have corals that suffer in my tank so i moved them to 4" from the top where I have 34,000 lux and the results have been amazing.

@Devi Tell me if I got the wrong pic.

I added two 20º bars just to accent the light rays you can see in the photo...looks like a little turbidity after cleaning the glass or something, but it give you a decent idea of the coverage and angle of light entering the tank. That's a 40º light field between the bars. It would be better if the photo was dead-on, so there's probably some skew to the 20º...still good to let you see what's happening.

All mostly just FYI until we can see the lux readings I mentioned in post #12. ;) :)

I thin mcarrol nailed it on this one. Better spread.
I personally dont like the single source lighting for corals as from everything Ive ever read a wide broad spread it overall better. It covers the coral and wraps light around providing light from all angles(MH reflectors & t5) not just the top and some bouncing off the sand. Its also why I like canopy's and even line them with reflective materials to increase the "size" of the source.. thats my preference however not a rule.

This is a great example. great coverage lots of spread, plenty of light bouncing around.

This is 3-360we on a 20" deep tank. Sps grows on sand less bottom with ease. I'm selling these 3 as I'm upgrading tanks soon and wanted to try something else. Most of my corals grow like weeds in my tank.

But know what I know now about the distance and par of the Kessel(thank you guys) I would not use just one over an "SPS tank" as sooner or later it seems like you'l run out of intensity and never get into the 500-900 par Ive seen on many.

Good thread!

 

[Devi]

I'm going to think at least 20% of light is bouncing off that glass top of mine. Then when it gets precipitation on it or salt creep, even more. I lose the top I gain par right? I think adding a 160 is the way to go, however I can make it work for a little while. With the new kessil necks I might be able to get a better spead.

 

[Devi]

The shrooms on the rock. Notice the stalks. Yuma reaches too. Doesn't lay flat.

 

[Eckolancer]

I will add that kessil is the only light that puts out UV light. Others put out uv spectrum but not true UV light. It's kinda like MH lights.

 

[Eckolancer]

I get over 2 million lux at the light. Right at water surface of water it is 7.5k lux not sure below water what the readings are. That is while running white if running blues it cuts down to 900 lux at water and 900k at light. This is where I don't think they have found a proper way to measure LEDs penetration.

 

[TheEngineer]

I have mine set to 100%blue/100%white (50% color on my reef angel) and 60% intensity and I get right around 200k lux 6" under the light, dead center.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The shrooms on the rock. Notice the stalks. Yuma reaches too. Doesn't lay flat.

One of the reasons I rely hit the meter trail hard is because all the advice I was given was wrong , watts per gallon etc etc. so I lost coral for a good while due to under lighting.
That said.
I really don't subscribe to the coral reaching thing. I'd like to see some real science on that before I believe it. I honestly have only seen anecdotal evidence
Once I was lucky enough to to start getting colonies under the polyp head the stalks are actually stretched. You don't notice on a colony. But a single colony you do. Then recently before my last upgrade I had poly reaching. Got more power better spectrum moved the colony up. They are still reaching.
When I had lost coral to what I know from the meter was under lighting. They melted. They may fade or become translucent and shrink. Not reached.
You know know what you lux is and a close par value so it may not be light.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I get over 2 million lux at the light. Right at water surface of water it is 7.5k lux not sure below water what the readings are. That is while running white if running blues it cuts down to 900 lux at water and 900k at light. This is where I don't think they have found a proper way to measure LEDs penetration.

Compare it to a 3D par model from an led manufacturer. At the top of the model it is at its highest par at the bottom it's at the lowest.
Led and arc lamp are light. They penetrate the exact same way. Frequency of light does not change.
They do make underwater meters if your really that curious.
A scientific test would be to map your tank with a lux meter. Map it with a par meter. Map it with a foot candle meter.
Not a phone. See the post above as to why it's not really accurate.
You could buy a fifteen dollar meter put it in a bag an drop it in the water.
It's what I had to do to shoot in a swimming pool once because the Dp wouldn't be live my spot meter reading was accurate.
So I put my 400 meter in a bag and put it in the pool. That day su oh we can't say stuff like that.