Lanthanum precipitate

[jda]

You can dose the LC and pull the socks in a matter of minutes. Socks on... dose... wait a minutes... socks off.

Yes, the raw LC can get through he socks and into the sump/whatever if it does not bind to any phosphate sources. When you have a lot of po4, it will bind very quickly, turn white and get filtered. When you don't have much po4 then the lanthanum floats around for longer until it binds, including going through the sock.

Although I doubt that this causes much trouble, I think that most Lanthanum Phosphate crystals likely end up in the substrate or the bottom of the tank or sump. The idea that ALL get filtered or skimmed does not seem likely to me.

As for fish, dosing down the overflow vs in a tank is likely the biggest reason why some fish are OK and some are not. The raw LC might be the issue, and not the crystals. In any case, there are good, smart hobbyists who have had issues with fish death after dosing, so be careful - these are not thumb suckers looking to blame the neighbor spraying weeds, hand lotion, incense or candles for their fish losses.

 

[BZOFIQ]

You don’t find that 1 micron filters quickly clog up?

They do, they'll be full in a day.

The fact that I have two and they are long helps a bit.

 

[BZOFIQ]

You could react a little Lanthanum in a jug with some tapwater (assuming tapwater has a bunch of phos), if it clouds you could tip it through the socks into a glass and see if it’s clear at either of those micron sizes.

I've used LC over the years. Never had a problem with fish, slow and steady wins the race. Dilute it big time, drip extremely slowly into overflow, use micron socks, no cloudiness, no issues.

If you're doing it right, the biggest risk with LC is bottoming out the phosphates.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Best place for filter socks IMO:
dudadiesel.com

This is the same supplier as those on A-Z listed above; didnt realize they sell directly much cheaper - good find.

 

[Miami Reef]

these are not thumb suckers looking to blame the neighbor spraying weeds, hand lotion, incense or candles for their fish losses.

I love when you say “thumb suckers.”

This is what Randy says about free lanthanum.

There will always be some free lanthanum after adding it, no matter what the phosphate level, but I do not know where the exact equilibrium lies. No, they are not mutually exclusive just like calcium and carbonate are not.

Also, Lanthanum can work to bring your PO4 levels below 0.01ppm. It’s a common misconception that lanthanum doesn’t work for lower levels of phosphates. In my opinion, I think the benefits of switching to GFO for lower levels is because there will be a higher likelihood of free lanthanum when the phosphate levels are very low.

Lanthanum easily takes phosphate to below 0.01 ppm.

Here’s another quote from Randy about the potential theories of how using lanthanum can hurt clams (unproven, just theories). In this quote, he was responding to my concern about using lanthanum in a tank with clams.

I do not know that it does for sure kill clams, or if it does, how.

Here are two possible explanations...

1. Lanthanum phosphate/carbonate particles get into and clog up important filtering structures in clams.

2. Lanthanum deposits onto/into calcium carbonate and impacts the placement of new shell material (it is known to get into human bones from humans using it, but that may or may not be a problem for them).

If it is #1, then the free lanthanum is not the issue.

Water changes can reduce it, as will waiting for it to precipitate.

 

[Nano_Man]

I’ve been using LC for six months with no I’ll effect’s to fish or anything. I just followed Randys recipe but it’s that good you could bottom out very easily if your dosing is wrong. I could be wrong I drip it in very slowly in the back return chamber and that’s it . Seems to work fine for me

 

[jda]

I would also like to know that type of LC that people with issues have had. I use the SeaKlear which I believe is pure LC with no other stuff, but there is no guaranteed analysis or anything so who actually knows. I wonder if reefing companies put other stuff in there and get cute?

I have used LC with clams and had no issues. Clams are so hard lately from collection issues to so little and too blue of spectrum that most live on the edge anyway. I would not tie anything to clam deaths unless the hobbyist was very, very experienced and understood a massive amount of nuance about how to make clams thrive.

 

[Miami Reef]

Clams are so hard lately from collection issues to so little and too blue of spectrum that most live on the edge anyway.

Can you further elaborate on this? Don‘t photosynthetic clams share the same zooxanthella that predominantly prefer the blue spectrums?

I think the main issue is lack of par.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I would also like to know that type of LC that people with issues have had. I use the SeaKlear which I believe is pure LC with no other stuff, but there is no guaranteed analysis or anything so who actually knows. I wonder if reefing companies put other stuff in there and get cute?

I have used LC with clams and had no issues. Clams are so hard lately from collection issues to so little and too blue of spectrum that most live on the edge anyway. I would not tie anything to clam deaths unless the hobbyist was very, very experienced and understood a massive amount of nuance about how to make clams thrive.

I haven't experienced any problems but I purchase the chemical and make my own solutions.

 

[JHSteepat]

Sorry if this is somewhat off point, but I am not understanding something very basic (noob question). I’v been thinking a lot about nutrient export given the hair algae outbreak in my tank.

When something dies or food, etc. is decomposed or eaten, don’t we end up with a mixture of nitrates and phosphate? When you do a water change, don’t the nitrate and phosphate get diluted proportionately? If you are removing phosphate (by any means) and not nitrate, what happens to the nitrate when now you can’t grow algae due to removal of phosphate?

Are we just happy we have no phosphate and therefore no algae and less interference with stony coral growth, but still need to do WCs to dilute nitrate? Or does the nitrate and phosphate get skewed towards po4 due to some nuance of husbandry resulting in excessive po4, which needs to be knocked down?

 

[jda]

Can you further elaborate on this? Don‘t photosynthetic clams share the same zooxanthella that predominantly prefer the blue spectrums?

I think the main issue is lack of par.

We can discuss this somewhere else, but there are only a few clades that have peaks in blue but even these can use energy in other parts of the spectrums. There are clades that use massive amounts of energy outside of the visible range too. Many other clades peak in other places. It was mostly a LED company thing to make people believe that blue matters so much... blue is important, but so are the other colors too.

 

[Pistondog]

Yes, I do remember that brand, and that they were super long, lol. Did you use anything special to see them with? (I believe they are glued or otherwise bonded at the bottom... I'd want to be sure the sock was sealed adequately)

Just turn inside out and stitch with sewing machine

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry if this is somewhat off point, but I am not understanding something very basic (noob question). I’v been thinking a lot about nutrient export given the hair algae outbreak in my tank.

When something dies or food, etc. is decomposed or eaten, don’t we end up with a mixture of nitrates and phosphate? When you do a water change, don’t the nitrate and phosphate get diluted proportionately? If you are removing phosphate (by any means) and not nitrate, what happens to the nitrate when now you can’t grow algae due to removal of phosphate?

Are we just happy we have no phosphate and therefore no algae and less interference with stony coral growth, but still need to do WCs to dilute nitrate? Or does the nitrate and phosphate get skewed towards po4 due to some nuance of husbandry resulting in excessive po4, which needs to be knocked down?

There are ways that N and P are added or exported that are not related to one another.

Simplest case is the process of denitrification which converts nitrate into N2 which blows off to the air, but does nothing to phosphate.

 

[Sordfish]

Sorry if this is somewhat off point, but I am not understanding something very basic (noob question). I’v been thinking a lot about nutrient export given the hair algae outbreak in my tank.

When something dies or food, etc. is decomposed or eaten, don’t we end up with a mixture of nitrates and phosphate? When you do a water change, don’t the nitrate and phosphate get diluted proportionately? If you are removing phosphate (by any means) and not nitrate, what happens to the nitrate when now you can’t grow algae due to removal of phosphate?

Are we just happy we have no phosphate and therefore no algae and less interference with stony coral growth, but still need to do WCs to dilute nitrate? Or does the nitrate and phosphate get skewed towards po4 due to some nuance of husbandry resulting in excessive po4, which needs to be knocked down?

Your nitrates and phosphates are not always generated in the same ratio. For example, in tanks where pellet food is used heavily, you may see your phosphates increasing but not your nitrates (pellets include lots of added phosphates typically). In that case you’d want to tackle the phosphate increase but won’t have to worry about nitrates. Keep in mind that there are many other types of nutrients in the system typically in some form of dissolved organics. That is why water changes and skimmers matter regardless. Can’t measure for everything.

Recent academic papers I read warn where the tank is phosphate limited- I.e you have very little phosphate but the rest of your nutrients are fine. In these cases it looks like corals bleach. However corals in nitrate limited tanks seem to be fine - ie your nitrates are almost zero but you have plenty of everything else. That is what it is very important to make sure your phosphates don’t bottom out.

See for example:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

and

Interesting new paper

Impact of nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) enrichment and skewed N to P stoichiometry on the skeletal formation and microstructure of symbiotic reef corals M. C. Buckingham, C. D’Angelo, T. B. Chalk, G. L. Foster, K. G. Johnson, Z. Connelly, C. Olla, M. Saeed & J. Wiedenmann Coral Reefs (2022)...

humble.fish

 

[Miami Reef]

We can discuss this somewhere else, but there are only a few clades that have peaks in blue but even these can use energy in other parts of the spectrums. There are clades that use massive amounts of energy outside of the visible range too. Many other clades peak in other places. It was mostly a LED company thing to make people believe that blue matters so much... blue is important, but so are the other colors too.

Interesting quote from @Dana Riddle

Hi Luca,
Sorry for the late reply. Yes, if the intensity of the blue light is intense enough, the accessory or antennae photopigments (chlorophyll a, chlorophyll c2, peridinin, beta-carotene, possibly fucoxanthin) will channel the photons they collect to reaction centers in P-680 and P-700 and photosynthesis will become saturated. Now, the issue is this - I think. The reaction of zooxanthellae to blue light is to increase photopigment content/density, hence more light is collected. If the amount of light collected during the photoperiod (Daily Light Integral) far exceeds what a coral would experience at depths where there is a lot of blue light and little red, is it possible that this unnatural combinations exceeds the natural defenses. I wish I had a better answer, but each question answered asks 10 more questions.

 

[Garf]

Symbiosis, yeah right. Soon as the tenants can’t pay the rent they are out on the Streets. Coral capitalism.

 

[Miami Reef]

Since Tridacna tissues are refractive, probably best to use full spectrum lamps.
see here for details:

Coral Coloration, Part 9: Tridacna and Other Photosynthetic Clam Coloration, With Observations on Possible Functions

This month, we will continue our observations of marine invertebrate coloration with a slightly different subject - that of the impressive appearance of photosynthetic clams.

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would also like to know that type of LC that people with issues have had. I use the SeaKlear which I believe is pure LC with no other stuff, but there is no guaranteed analysis or anything so who actually knows.

That's a very logical concern for a product used by some just fine and not others, and for which there are no analyses of impurities generally available.

IMO, it's a reason to use a product with known purity, as opposed to pool stuff. It may not matter at all, but it is also not hard to do.

 

[jda]

Is it strange that I trust a pool supply company more than I might Seachem, Boyd, Kent or most reefing suppliers? I know that I should not trust any of them.

 

[Nano_Man]

Yep trust Randys info and you won’t go far wrong imo