Lasses Dream Build

[najer]

Nice, it will be interesting to see how they grow.

 

[JonasRoman]

Yes - I have read that article - but we are talking about two different things. The photosynthesis is depends on quantum physics - it means that there is a certain energy level that´s needed. Energy level in this case correspond to a certain wavelength. All other has to be transported to this certain energy packet. Different pigment has different capability to make this transfer – e.g. different energy loses. With LED – we can concentrate the wavelengths there the transforming mechanism is most effective – i.e. at the peaks of the different chlorophylls (or other effective pigment) Green is a (around 525 nm) is a special case. In terrestrial plants – it has been shown that green penetrate the canopy and can be effective in photosynthesis there the red and blue radiation already has been absorbed (at least – that’s the way I have understand this – I can be wrong)

I understand your theory about far red – but my theory is the opposite. Far red – in my theory – makes the coral bee more slender. That has been proven with terrestrial plants!

You are welcome whenever you want



Sincerely Lasse

Good comment, I know that Lasse that their is in the end a matter of only that wavelength which the photosyntecic ”machine” uses to achieve its tasks but I think that exactly because of that there is benefits in having also the “other” wavelengths as that is an insurance that you target the correct wavelengths. I imagine that it is not easy with a led (which is not 100% consistent) hit exact correct. By using other wavelengths also we let the law of the nature transport the correct wavelengths in that way you describe and thus minimise risk of lacking some that your very targeted led maybe can miss.
And besides that, as with green for plant, there could be other functions which we really wants for some other wavelengths. For instance I can imagine that other wavelengths can stimulate coloration and trigger other signals not only strictly related to the photosynthetic machine. Like blue stimulate xantophyll for instance.

See you soon

Jonas

 

[JonasRoman]

Concerning growth pattern of sps it is so many other factors that we know influence , and therefore I think it will be difficult to draw conclusion that red lightly itself will affect.

The circulation: more circulation gives more dens e branches and thicker branches.
More light gives a grown pattern in “side path” and flattening way
High ph gives many branches and a higher speed of growth
High alk higher growht rate also but maybe not that very obvious pattern with many branches that high ph gives.

So if you in all these environmental factors shall point out red as cause I think you have to have a really advanced setup to prove that. But of course that would be interesting. But my believe is until it is proven the opposite: that red gives in that case a more flat growth way..but of course I can be totally wrong. We don’t know I guess so your test is very interesting

Jonas

 

[Lasse]

I´m not talking about red wavelengths - I´m talking about far red - wavelengths > 700 nm

The test I´m setting up in my aquaria with these three frags is only a preparing test in order to see if even these frags will develop in the same way in my aquaria. If that happens - an experiment there only the amount of far red will be changed will be set up. Not in my aquarium but in an other place.

But already now I can prove your wrong that red will give a more flat growth - at least at the tank there the frags is coming from. These are located 30 cm below the most powerful source of red wavelengths I ever have heard about for coral growth. And in a part with a very high flow of water

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

I´m not talking about red wavelengths - I´m talking about far red - wavelengths > 700 nm

The test I´m setting up in my aquaria with these three frags is only a preparing test in order to see if even these frags will develop in the same way in my aquaria. If that happens - an experiment there only the amount of far red will be changed will be set up. Not in my aquarium but in an other place.

But already now I can prove your wrong that red will give a more flat growth - at least at the tank there the frags is coming from. These are located 30 cm below the most powerful source of red wavelengths I ever have heard about for coral growth. And in a part with a very high flow of water

Sincerely Lasse

Well I was not so exact concerning exact number, If you mean far red I also mean far red as it is your thread and theory I comment.

Concerning the setup you say prove I am wrong have as far as i know a lot of other wavelenghts too and as I have said I believe the ratio could be of importance. Thus a lot of blue could maybe inhibit the biological effect of red. You can not prove anything by the tank you refer to, just suspect. BUT your own setup, maybe. Let it go and give us the results and then we maybe know. The problem is that tou must have all other physical, genetical and chemical things same.
And last: we know that same coral with same genom can activate and deactivate growth genomes and genomes with colour info if reason we do not know. Two corals if same genome can have different colour even if they stand beside. I say this to emphasis that it is not so easy to do these conclusions.


Regards
Jonas

 

[Lasse]

This picture show a slender phenotype of a birds nest. It is growing 30 cm below the surface and below a fixture with a lot of red LEDs. Its growing in a stream from a tunze wavemaker – 80 000 l/h. You can see that the stream is coming from the right! PAR around 600. pH between 8 – 8.1

With other words – this phenotype has grown in a location there everyone says that the phenotype should be compact and bushy with many, closely spaced branches. Instead it show up a phenotype that is total opposite this statements

When this Genotype is moved from this aquaria to my aquaria – it shows up a total different phenotype. The picture below shows an example moved from a growth tank (the same genotype as the one in the actual aquaria) to my aquaria 4 weeks ago, Note the very dense branching that has been started. Its situated in a PAR reading of 200, moderate stream, pH 8.1-8.4, moderate amount of red (600 – 700 nm). Figures indicating a more slender growth – according to common accepted theories – but not

Three main things differ between my aquaria and the one above pH, Si concentration and amount of wavelengths >700 nm. My aquaria has more or less zero wavelengths > 700 – the original aquaria – plenty of wavelengths > 700 nm.

Old explanations for the growth pattern of birds nest does not fit in this case – there must be other explanations that’s more true

I have now moved 3 frags directly from the mother colony to my aquaria in order to see if the same pattern will show up again (excluding that something happened in the growth tank)

I have done one change in my tank – I have added two T5 bulbs. I needed that for other reasons.

If the new frags will start to show a new phenotype (i.e. start to branch a lot) – more controlled test will be done. Everything equal but the main suspect (for the moment – far red) will vary between the samples.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[revhtree]

Very nice job Lasse!

 

[Lasse]

@revhtree

Thank You

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

This picture show a slender phenotype of a birds nest. It is growing 30 cm below the surface and below a fixture with a lot of red LEDs. Its growing in a stream from a tunze wavemaker – 80 000 l/h. You can see that the stream is coming from the right! PAR around 600. pH between 8 – 8.1

With other words – this phenotype has grown in a location there everyone says that the phenotype should be compact and bushy with many, closely spaced branches. Instead it show up a phenotype that is total opposite this statements

When this Genotype is moved from this aquaria to my aquaria – it shows up a total different phenotype. The picture below shows an example moved from a growth tank (the same genotype as the one in the actual aquaria) to my aquaria 4 weeks ago, Note the very dense branching that has been started. Its situated in a PAR reading of 200, moderate stream, pH 8.1-8.4, moderate amount of red (600 – 700 nm). Figures indicating a more slender growth – according to common accepted theories – but not

Three main things differ between my aquaria and the one above pH, Si concentration and amount of wavelengths >700 nm. My aquaria has more or less zero wavelengths > 700 – the original aquaria – plenty of wavelengths > 700 nm.

Old explanations for the growth pattern of birds nest does not fit in this case – there must be other explanations that’s more true

I have now moved 3 frags directly from the mother colony to my aquaria in order to see if the same pattern will show up again (excluding that something happened in the growth tank)

I have done one change in my tank – I have added two T5 bulbs. I needed that for other reasons.

If the new frags will start to show a new phenotype (i.e. start to branch a lot) – more controlled test will be done. Everything equal but the main suspect (for the moment – far red) will vary between the samples.



Sincerely Lasse

But My birdnest is identical to that one on first picture (in the “red light tank” ) and I have definitely not much red light. Actually the first picture is what it very often looks like in many tanks with no excess of this red/far red. It is your growth pattern which deviates so I am not sure at all that it have something with red light to do as more things differ between your aquarium.(as you also say)
I believe it has to do with your high ph. We can not either exclude that it could depend on trace elements where you have sky levels of Si. You have extraordinary high ph in your private tank. 8.4 is twice as much as 8.1 so there is twice amount of free co3 in your aquarium compared to the first picture. I think and that is in congruent with my experience of sps and ph, that ph have a very strong influence of growth and also pattern.

I will follow your results with curiosity.
Jonas

 

[Lasse]

Once again - red and far red is different issues in this context . You have phosphorus coated LEDs - they produce wavelengths > 700 nm. What’s different in my tank it’s the lack of wavelengths > 700 nm. In terrestrial plants - its only far red (wavelengths > 700 nm) that have these effects (a slender growth). I can´t exclude the pH and the silicate level but the knowledge of the impact of far red (wavelengths > 700 nm) on other organisms using photosynthesis make it the first point to confirm or exclude.

FYI The pH and the high silicate levels is the situation for the moment. The pH and the Si levels has been much lower in the past without another growth pattern of my birds nest. They change to this growth pattern in my aquaria already from day 1

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

Once again - red and far red is different issues in this context . You have phosphorus coated LEDs - they produce wavelengths > 700 nm. What’s different in my tank it’s the lack of wavelengths > 700 nm. In terrestrial plants - its only far red (wavelengths > 700 nm) that have these effects (a slender growth). I can´t exclude the pH and the silicate level but the knowledge of the impact of far red (wavelengths > 700 nm) on other organisms using photosynthesis make it the first point to confirm or exclude.

FYI The pH and the high silicate levels is the situation for the moment. The pH and the Si levels has been much lower in the past without another growth pattern of my birds nest. They change to this growth pattern in my aquaria already from day 1

Sincerely Lasse

Ok Thanks for more clarifying but I then must ask, maybe with risk of disclosure my unknownledge;-), is really a phosphorcoated led emitting far red?
They basically emit blue and yellow which together makes the white light. I know you can experiment to extend the range to green and maybe even orange-red, but often the white led lacks these wavelengths..so...shouldn’t also my set up misses far red?? I have seen tables of these white leds and never seen any far red. Please explain that part or tell me if I am wrong.

 

[Lasse]

Yea - it will - at least more than my fixture

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

Yea - it will - at least more than my fixture

Sincerely Lasse

Ok. Then I maybe have looked at old white leds , have to update that part then. My believ was that it was unsignificant far Red from white diods and absolutely no infrared and that is due to that the phosphorus coating is in first place emitting yellow otherwise it will not in mixed with the blue be white. This sounds strange to me that there is far red from white diode.
I will check some and if I have questions I will be back for more explanation.

Regards
Jonas

Ps: for the non Swedish audience I can tell Lasse and me always have these discussion in Swedish forums and are very seldom of same opinion;-)..hehe..that is good for the learning.

 

[JonasRoman]

I just checked. So concerning cool white I was correct. Warm white some far red but really not much. I therefore still strongly doubt that that small part have any significance and thus I still believe that for instance my own bird nest growth pattern which is identical to that you have under far-red(and very many other aquarium) , is not because of the far red.
Lasse, you have a theory, I have some reason to not believe it until proven, so now it is up to your setup to disprove/prove. It is not strange to have doubts about this as there is some factors that speaking against your theory. But who knows, we will see.
I would actually be happy if your theory is correct as that is interesting and I really is impressed of your energy to always looking for new knowledge.
As I said, we will follow this and thanks for interesting idea.

Sincerely
Jonas

 

[Lasse]

Ps: for the non Swedish audience I can tell Lasse and me always have these discussion in Swedish forums and are very seldom of same opinion;-)..hehe..that is good for the learning.

Yea - it´s true but the question is - how will these discussion normally end Jonas?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

Yea - it´s true but the question is - how will these discussion normally end Jonas?

Sincerely Lasse

The ending is like the pH, variable;-)...and I can admit with no hesitation that I learn of these discussions

 

[Lasse]

2 of this on its way to Sweden - guess the wavelength 10 W

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

2 of this on its way to Sweden - guess the wavelength 10 W

Sincerely Lasse

A lot of wavelengths >700 nm I guess;-)?

 

[Lasse]

No - 730 - 740 nm

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

No - 730 - 740 nm

Sincerely Lasse

Isn’t >700 as I wrote same as “730-740”?