LEDs are NOT a cost effective way to light a reef... (at least not for me)

[VJV]

@VJV I wanna try running your numbers, but until that happens....do you have a power meter like a Kill-A-Watt? You can eliminate quite a few assumptions from your calculations with a day or two of real-time monitoring.

I could buy one, but than I would also need to buy 5 Radions, 1 72'' Spectra unit, 2 ATIs and one chiller

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

leading you to believe that too can get away with just two for the typical 4 foot tan

And yes by the way. You can.
Two radions two kessil 360 two hydras two Bb two ap 700

 

[VJV]

Why would they not be an option if you say what you're looking at is not affordable?

It would probably cost me $100 bucks to custome a single fixture. 200 if I had it done for me.

Still under 1000 if I had a builder for the whole thing for me.

Ok, you win ;Blackeye.
Seriously, I would not use DYI or a black box fixture in my tank. I am away for work during the week so do not want to risk the safety of my family using something that could start a fire. And perhaps this is completely unfounded and the risk is minimal but I would still sleep better with a high quality fixture, LEDor otherwise.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ok, you win ;Blackeye.
Seriously, I would not use DYI or a black box fixture in my tank. I am away for work during the week so do not want to risk the safety of my family using something that could start a fire. And perhaps this is completely unfounded and the risk is minimal but I would still sleep better with a high quality fixture, LEDor otherwise.

Ok. Point made then.
It's not becuse you can't. It purely you don't want to.
Any choice you make one way or the other dictates other equiptment choices.

I work away from home as well. Btw sometimes weeks at a time.
The only thing in eight years to burn was a name brand store bought power strip.

 

[chefjpaul]

I could care less about the miniscule cost ratios of (A) vs. (B), they all grow corals, I went with pure sexiness.

Those hydras and mitras are sexy lights, all a matter of taste now days.


Tullio Dell Aquila: The facts of light | MACNA Speakers 2017 - Bulk Reef Supply
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/tullio-dell-aquila-the-facts-of-light-macna-speaker-2017/

 

[Lasse]

Thanks for posting! Well, I did include the chiller but only the upfront cost, and added to the cost of the Spectra. Without the Chiller the Spectra would cost me approx 1500€. I am adding to that 850€ from the chiller cost. Not adding the electricity cost of running the chiller because I would also need to factor in the cost of running a heater to heat the water in the LED option. So basically it only increases the upfront cost of the Spectra option.

You need to take with the chiller energy consumption because the efficiency of LED is nearly the same as for MH of the visible wavelengths. But in case of MH – the “waste” energy (heat) comes in the tank and in case of LED the “waste” energy (heat) comes into the room. It takes lesser energy to heat water 1 degree compared with the energy you need to chill it 1 degree because of energy losses (into the air) in the chiller. And the IR part of MH is huge and heat the water directly.

The efficiency of a water chiller is lesser than 40 % but the efficiency for a heater in water is 100 %

Also – because of LED is a spot source with most of the visible light energy concentrated to a small point – Some LED fixtures is only run at 50 % of their nominal level – but you need a dissent area coverage – therefore a lot of fixtures or other types of fixture

Sincerely Lasse

 

[mcarroll]

I could buy one, but than I would also need to buy 5 Radions, 1 72'' Spectra unit, 2 ATIs and one chiller

I suppose if you think that makes sense and you can afford it, but let's not confuse the idea without reason! If the idea is to be more rational (we're using tables and numbers, right?), then it's a great idea (also cheap, easy) to do some data gathering with an inexpensive piece of equipment like a Kill-A-Watt in order to eliminate some assumptions in your calculations. You no longer have to wonder or make averages or assumptions about chiller or heater electricity consumption, for example.

And perhaps this is completely unfounded and the risk is minimal but I would still sleep better with a high quality fixture, LEDor otherwise.

Someone said that worry is a misuse of imagination. Buy something with a UL or equiv. certification and you're as safe as you can be. (Note: you still have to use a smoke detector in your house! There are no guarantees.)

DIY is another matter...safety is in your hands, no different methods are used than were used in your house's electrical system...which should be a good thing...sounds like DIY's not for you for other reasons though. Still makes a good case and point about potential costs.

 

[3mm3]

Got to add in the cost of LED fixtures failing and needing warranty work or replacement lol

 

[VJV]

And yes by the way. You can.
Two radions two kessil 360 two hydras two Bb two ap 700

In my opinion such a tank would be horribly shaded so not for me. By the way, I have had two kessils a360w, two Giesemann Teszlas, and Two Xr15s in a 40x22x24 tank. Any of these had horrible shading and two clear hotspots. Not ideal for a more SPS driven tank.

 

[VJV]

Ok. Point made then.
It's not becuse you can't. It purely you don't want to.
Any choice you make one way or the other dictates other equiptment choices.

I work away from home as well. Btw sometimes weeks at a time.
The only thing in eight years to burn was a name brand store bought power strip.

I work in a different country. Every week.
I can also drive my kids to school in a cheap DYI car made of scrap parts. But I won't. And it will likely get them there as well. Simply put, it does not make sense to start adding variances of different segments with each of the technology because if you do than the comparison Is basically point less as the scenarios are infinite.

 

[VJV]

I could care less about the miniscule cost ratios of (A) vs. (B), they all grow corals, I went with pure sexiness.

Those hydras and mitras are sexy lights, all a matter of taste now days.


Tullio Dell Aquila: The facts of light | MACNA Speakers 2017 - Bulk Reef Supply
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/tullio-dell-aquila-the-facts-of-light-macna-speaker-2017/

Fair enough

 

[mcarroll]

In my opinion such a tank would be horribly shaded so not for me.

;Cow;Cyclops;Doctor;Jawdrop;Facepalm;Meh;Oldman;Panda

If you don't even like kind of light that fixture makes, then I'm not sure I understand why you selected that LED in the first place – to use, or for the numerical comparison.

I'm glad you like your current lights, but the thread title now seems like you're just trying to fight hype with hype. I think your real beef is with hype – not with LED's.

Not ideal for a more SPS driven tank.

I'm not sure such broad statements as this can be supported outside of speaking of individual tastes, can they?

 

[leepink23]

I only have 2 radions on a 4 foot tank, mixed reef. I plan to add diffusers, but since I bought these used, including mounting and wxm I am at $1000 and have had a year. All my Sps are growing well.

 

[VJV]

You need to take with the chiller energy consumption because the efficiency of LED is nearly the same as for MH of the visible wavelengths. But in case of MH – the “waste” energy (heat) comes in the tank and in case of LED the “waste” energy (heat) comes into the room. It takes lesser energy to heat water 1 degree compared with the energy you need to chill it 1 degree because of energy losses (into the air) in the chiller. And the IR part of MH is huge and heat the water directly.

The efficiency of a water chiller is lesser than 40 % but the efficiency for a heater in water is 100 %

Also – because of LED is a spot source with most of the visible light energy concentrated to a small point – Some LED fixtures is only run at 50 % of their nominal level – but you need a dissent area coverage – therefore a lot of fixtures or other types of fixture

Sincerely Lasse

Valid point, but to accurately make that adjustment you would need to also adjust for the weather pattern of the region you live in and I do not believe it would have a material impact in the outcome of the comparison.

 

[VJV]

I suppose if you think that makes sense and you can afford it, but let's not confuse the idea without reason! If the idea is to be more rational (we're using tables and numbers, right?), then it's a great idea (also cheap, easy) to do some data gathering with an inexpensive piece of equipment like a Kill-A-Watt in order to eliminate some assumptions in your calculations. You no longer have to wonder or make averages or assumptions about chiller or heater electricity consumption, for example.

The point is, I can find exactly what I am spending with my current fixture, but not with the alternatives given I do not own them at the moment. BTW, the current fixture is a 8x80 Giesemann Matrix T5, not any of the alternatives. Lengthwise this fixture does not cover the entire 80 inch tank as I would like, hence looking at alternatives.

Someone said that worry is a misuse of imagination. Buy something with a UL or equiv. certification and you're as safe as you can be. (Note: you still have to use a smoke detector in your house! There are no guarantees.)

True. I guess we all have our thresholds.

DIY is another matter...safety is in your hands, no different methods are used than were used in your house's electrical system...which should be a good thing...sounds like DIY's not for you for other reasons though. Still makes a good case and point about potential costs.

I would NEVEr trust my DUI skills

 

[VJV]

;Cow;Cyclops;Doctor;Jawdrop;Facepalm;Meh;Oldman;Panda

If you don't even like kind of light that fixture makes, then I'm not sure I understand why you selected that LED in the first place – to use, or for the numerical comparison.

Never said that. I do like it. It just takes significantly more fixtures and hence it is not cost effective. I would love for Ecotech to come out with a hybrid LED T5 fixture.

I'm glad you like your current lights, but the thread title now seems like you're just trying to fight hype with hype. I think your real beef is with hype – not with LED's.

Again, not true. I am looking for new lights because the fixture I currently have (Giesemann Matrix 8x80 T5 dimmable) does not provide adequate coverage lengthwise to my 80 inch long tank.

I'm not sure such broad statements as this can be supported outside of speaking of individual tastes, can they?

This is not individual taste. It is cost comparison. I can try to add the spreadsheet so that anyone can replace with their fixtures of choice, local electricity cost and find for themselves.

 

[VJV]

I only have 2 radions on a 4 foot tank, mixed reef. I plan to add diffusers, but since I bought these used, including mounting and wxm I am at $1000 and have had a year. All my Sps are growing well.

Nice. buying second hand makes a huge difference, obviously. To my taste I would prefer a bit more front to back coverage. Placing them perpendicular to the tank would achieve that but than you would likely need a third fixture.

 

[Potatohead]

In my very unscientific way, I can say LED's ARE cheaper in the long run.
I used to run MH+T5 on my standard 240. 96x24x24. I had 3 250w Halides and 8 39w T5. In that scenario, a chiller was a must for me. At my peak, not counting the annual $400+ bulb replacement costs, I was spending $800 a month on electricity. Keep in mind I live in Anaheim California which is some of the cheapest electric costs in the country.
After doing the math and spending the $3500 for my 5 G3 Pro's and deleting the no longer needed chiller my electric costs dropped to about $200 a month. Everything else stayed the same.
Doing some simple math, $3500 initial cost divided by $600 a month savings, the LED's pay for themselves in 5.83 months. This still doesn't account th $400 annual savings by not having to replace bulbs.
With the 5 Radions I have running front to back, spaced 10" apart, I get more than adequate coverage and my corals grow like weeds.
I am happy with my decision and have looked back.

Let's do some quick math:

Cheap power would be considered about $.12 per kw/h? You had 750w of halides and 312w of T5. So with five Radions XR30 G3's that is also 750w so the halides and Radions are a wash in terms of power.

Im going to guess you ran the T5's about ten hours per day, which would be 3120w consumed. Twelve cents per kw/h they were costing you 37.5 cents per day. Add a fan in there and let's call it 40 cents a day.

1/2 hp chiller is pulling about 10 amps or about 1200 watts. Running 100% full rip for ten hours (doubtful) you are spending $1.45 a day. With a pump to feed it call it $1.60 a day.

I'm having trouble seeing $600 a month here.

 

[Confuse]

If I had kept my AI Sol Blues to this day, then maybe they would have paid for themselves about now. =P But the reality is that not many people keep LED fixtures that long (myself included). Reef lighting keeps evolving and I don't think we've hit that innovation peak where we're all satisfied without another upgrade.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I work in a different country. Every week.
I can also drive my kids to school in a cheap DYI car made of scrap parts. But I won't. And it will likely get them there as well. Simply put, it does not make sense to start adding variances of different segments with each of the technology because if you do than the comparison Is basically point less as the scenarios are infinite.

Why would you diy something with scrap parts?

In my opinion such a tank would be horribly shaded so not for me. By the way, I have had two kessils a360w, two Giesemann Teszlas, and Two Xr15s in a 40x22x24 tank. Any of these had horrible shading and two clear hotspots. Not ideal for a more SPS driven tank.

Its your opinion not a fact.

It's also why I chose large multi emitter arrays and not pucks.

So ya just going to slap some t5s on it and call it done or what?