Lethargic small Sailfin

kkgaskin90 · Dec 14, 2013

We've had a little over a week. It's about 2". Very skinny from the get-go, but has been eating at every feeding. Tonight it is hanging out near the bottom and not eating. Doesn't appear to be breathing hard. Maybe ick? Tested water earlier tonight:
SG: 1.024
Salinity: 32
Temp: 78
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
Phosphate: 0.5

Put Caulerpa down close to it and it's not eating that either. All I have for hospital/QT is a 10 gallon-should I do that? And treat for ick or try to feed? I don't want to lose it :(

gobeach · Dec 14, 2013

The QT wouldn't hurt and I would treat for Ich, i blew the pic up and I see what could be Ich. Good luck, I hate losing fish.

kkgaskin90 · Dec 14, 2013

Hypo salinity? I dont have any medications

gobeach · Dec 15, 2013

Yes, hypo. 1.019 - 1.021 that's the range i use in my QT

tangboy · Dec 15, 2013

I say ich as well!

kkgaskin90 · Dec 15, 2013

Everything I read on Ich is saying now its in my DT... I have inverts and more fish than my 10gallon QT can handle...what in the world can/should I do about that?

I'm also reading to hold salinity at 1.008-1.009 ...Do you use 1.019-1.021 as a qt preventative or hospital?

NC2WA · Dec 15, 2013

couple of comments...

first, do you visibily see ich on the first, as in white specks, as in looks like it was hit by a salt shaker?

could be flukes or worms instead or a secondary infection that is caused by the ich...has this fish been treated with prazipro? if not, the fastest way to check is to do a freshwater dip..if you see white worms come off then that is your answer.

second, hypo salinity is NOT 1.019-1.021..this is doing NOTHING for the fish...

to perform true hyposalinity the level needs to be at 1.008-1.009 and needs to be at this level for a minimum of 4 wks...

after a 4 wk period, you slowly as in weeks, bring the salinity up to an appropriate level...

Before doing any treatment, I would read this article:

A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

kkgaskin90 · Dec 15, 2013

I did read that article :) I have it bookmarked so I can keep referring to it. For a freshwater dip... literally dip? As in a few seconds in and back out? This poor sailfin... Talk about stressing the poor guy out. Has NOT been treated with Prazipro

gobeach · Dec 15, 2013

NC2WA said:
couple of comments...

second, hypo salinity is NOT 1.019-1.021..this is doing NOTHING for the fish...

to perform true hyposalinity the level needs to be at 1.008-1.009 and needs to be at this level for a minimum of 4 wks...

after a 4 wk period, you slowly as in weeks, bring the salinity up to an appropriate level...

My bad - thanks for the correction.

NC2WA · Dec 15, 2013

freshwater dip as in up to 5 minutes if the fish can handle it..it you have some meth blue (2 drops per liter of water; 8 drops (0.4 ml) per gallon of water) might add to dip as it will calm the fish..make sure temp and pH are the same as the tank it is coming from...

if you think the fish is too frail at the moment, then do NOT perform a dip nor would I use copper..it will stress the fish even more and most likely kill it..

hypo can be used, but utlimately want to use copper with tangs...

kkgaskin90 · Dec 15, 2013

Thank you. We have done a freshwater dip (nothing visible came off) and lowered the salinity of QT slightly. If it survives until tomorrow we might try copper, but I'm not optimistic. I'm also not sure Ich is primary problem considering how skinny it is... I read a few other possibilities, but I'm not sure. This is my first encounter with Ich. No fun :(

Ddavis · Dec 15, 2013

Although it might be too late what are the chances it was being bullied. Although our fish act one way in the day the predators take advantage at night. If it is a parasite and it is not eating without the visual grain of sugar (crypto) stuck to the outside of the body you may be right and it might not be ich.

I would try two medications, methylene blue (http://www.marinedepot.com/Kordon_M...s-Kordon_Novalek_Oasis-NV37344-FIMEBF-vi.html) and metronidazole (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4615+4620+4753&pcatid=4753).

Take a look at what the medications treat and see if either of these fit what you are seeing. I hope you can save it.

NC2WA · Dec 15, 2013

if it is NOT ich, then hypo (or copper for that matter) is doing nothing for the fish other than stresses it out more...at this point, i would step back and get a proper diagnosis before you do any other treatment....

Eienna · Dec 15, 2013

I would suspect internal parasites. Hit it with prazipro, if it's not too late already. I don't know why everyone's saying ich. You didn't mention him flashing or anything.

He won't eat caulerpa. It has a distasteful chemical in it. Try live brine shrimp (possibly baby brine, if he's too small) or gracilaria algae.

kkgaskin90 · Dec 15, 2013

He was dead when we woke up this morning :(

That said, I did see the "grains of salt" on him (see picture in first post), and several of the other fish seem to have it as well. So now I'm not sure where to go from here. He had no visible injuries on him-I looked all over. I never once saw him bullied, but as mentioned that doesn't mean it didn't happen at night. My tank is always completely still when I check it at night... the "bullies" (damsels) only bullied each other over their territory, they haven't tried any of the other fish yet. Sailfin was really peaceful.

Did not know that about Caulerpa-I have it in my sump so figured it was worth a try. I saw him pick at it before when I put it in. I was trying anything I could think of. Also had an algae sheet. Didn't eat anything but he had gone downhill fast and I think it was just too late. Whatever it was had done it's damage.

I never saw it flash. All of my other fish are eating voraciously. None of them are flashing either.

So from here, should I just keep an eye on things to see if anyone stops eating? Could the "grains of salt" be anything other than ich? If not, I'm assuming the proper course of action is to remove the fish and do a hypo treatment in QT? That's gonna be a huge ordeal but definitely worth it to get ich out of the DT.

Can Ich come in on live rock? I know it needs a fish host but can live without for a certain amount of time <6 weeks? Reason I ask is we have avoided fish from the LFS since we ALWAYS see visible Ich on their fish and they have no quarantine procedures... but we DID get live rock from there... they argue that Ich can be in the tank and fish are just "strong enough to survive it"... but that really doesn't solve a problem even if it is true-from my understanding that leaves any fish a target should they get stressed or weakened for any reason, especially new additions, correct?

So I guess my questions are:
1) Where do I go from here?
2) Do you think it was Ich? Parasites? Something else? We may never know?
3) If I can't feed Caulerpa, and it tends to go sexual...what do you recommend for sumps? I have some Chaeto, but it breaks apart and gets in to my third chamber or hung up on the sponge I put to keep it out of the third chamber... am I doing something wrong?!
4) What about my other fish? Keep an eye out? Remove and treat with Hypo? Prazipro? Without knowing what happened, I don't want to cause undue stress...
5) Could the white specks be anything other than ich?
6) Could the Ich have come from the live rock?

Thanks guys! I really appreciate the help and insight you have provided!

kkgaskin90 · Dec 15, 2013

OH and I just remembered, I lost a feather duster 2 days ago as well... not sure if it could be related or not-my water parameters are as mentioned in the first post and were the exact same 2 days ago.

Nevermind....After some research I think I may have killed it. Just the top of it was off and the tip of the tube was crimped... I pulled it out thinking it was dead... now today I learned they pop their crowns off and grow bigger ones. That's what I get for not researching the feather duster. I feel like an idiot. And a worm killer.

NC2WA · Dec 15, 2013

Disclaimer: All of my answer ASSUME Ich is in the display tank.

1) Where do I go from here?

I would watch your fish closely. I would get a QT tank up and running NOW. This is in case you have to more ALL the fish out of the display tank and treat them with copper.

2) Do you think it was Ich? Parasites? Something else? We may never know?
Again, I can't be sure it was Ich, but if white spots like salt are on the fish, this is a sign of ich, it is also a sign of Marine Velvet, but Velvet has a sheen to it.
It is much more aggressive and contagious than Ich, the time you actually see MV on a fish, it is too late.

3) If I can't feed Caulerpa, and it tends to go sexual...what do you recommend for sumps? I have some Chaeto, but it breaks apart and gets in to my third chamber or hung up on the sponge I put to keep it out of the third chamber... am I doing something wrong?!

I use Chaeto, also mexican culupera doesnt go sexual

4) What about my other fish? Keep an eye out? Remove and treat with Hypo? Prazipro? Without knowing what happened, I don't want to cause undue stress...

Since Ich is now in the main tank, the ONLY way to eradicate it is to remove ALL fish and let the tank go fallow for a minimum of 8 weeks. Yes, that is correct. 8 wks.

5) Could the white specks be anything other than ich?
Yes, could be Marine Velvet, and the ONLY treatment that kills MV is copper.. Hyposalnity will NOT touch it.

6) Could the Ich have come from the live rock?
the rule of thumb is this: ANYTHING wet can carry parasites, even inverts...however, for Ich to survive it needs a host (that is, a fish)..you remove the fish, you kill the parasites, see the answer to question 4.

I will also add this...for ANY tang (and for that matter clownfish), I recommend to treat with copper only before putting into the main tank..dont bother with hypo..

the reason is tangs are much more susceptible to ich than most other fish...if i would to put a tang in my main tank, I would QT any tang for a min. of 8 wks with 2 of those 8 weeks dosing with copper treatment..just use cupramine and follow directions on the bottle...keep in mind a side effect of copper dosing is fish can stop eating...while you are getting that bottle a cupramine, I would also put up a bottle of Prazipro..this will treat flukes and worms..

kkgaskin90 · Dec 16, 2013

AWESOME info! Thank you SO much!

All I have for QT is a 10 gallon... That said-I have way more fish than a 10 gallon can hold. What size would you recommend for:
Blue Hippo Tang 1.5"
Flame Hawkfish 2"
Niger Trigger 2"
Clownfish (2) 1.5"
Blue Damsel (2) 1.5"
Three Stripe Damsel 1"
Yellow Sleeper Goby 3"
Snowflake Eel 7"

The damsels I can probably easily re-home

Ddavis · Dec 16, 2013

I know you are getting a lot of information but once ich is in your tank you will need to work quickly to save the animals if it is an outbreak like you describe.

Here is a good article that also answers many of your questions: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/

In addition to much of the advise you have already received I would suggest putting a uv sterilizer on the tank as well even if it is only ran part time because it will keep ich outbreaks like this from happening, in my experience.