All sharks and rays randomly stopped eating/lethargic

[ReneReef]

Regarding the pictures in the first post. What I see:
- floor and sides of the pond/pool the animals are kept in are tiled. That seems to me a rather abrasive/uncomfortable surface.
- abrasions on the underside of the ray where the chest cartilage is raised due the the animal being malnourished.

I’m no shark or ray expert. But seeing the pictures and reading over this topic makes me wonder if the living conditions these animals are kept in are actually suitable to keep these animals healthy longterm? Or are they the root cause of the problems?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I can get a photo of the hornshark later when I get back, he has cloudy white eyes, not as cloudy as they were, but to me looks good weight, no marks on the body exteriorly aside from the eyes, he was locked in that fins out head up position for about 12 hours but is currently moving more frequently now. Just rapid breathing adjustment.

I should have used a better term. It does have a sump and filtration, at the bottom. And sand actually, I meant bare as in not much going on aside the clowns, live rock from main display removed and all the fish had been stripped and added to the pond, but this was months ago. It was where he lived for 2+ years until he out grew it. Been constantly running though.

as for the marking on the underside of the ray, that is most likely from the horn shark, he always does crazy BS during feeding and swims right over top of the horn shark. He’s scratched himself on him numerous times over the years trying to take food from the shark, I’ve witnessed it first hand. In terms of size, he was the exact one in the bat ray photo, so you can see he lost weight exceptionally fast. He was eating every 2 days and I mean eating like a pig, fed vitamins, he was in really good shape and it felt like it came out of nowhere..

He only ate one jumbo shrimp 3 days before he passed but still took food, the day prior to him passing was the first time he has ever declined food.

The bamboo shark has only been here since last Thursday, they said he was eating well. Before shipment. Apparently not.

If it is bacterial what would this mean?

A short video is better than a still photo, hosting on YouTube works pretty well.

With bacterial infections, the bacteria involved are virtually always present in the aquarium, only when fish are compromised in some way (injury, poor condition, other disease issues) do they become infectious. Primary bacterial diseases are VERY rare. The few times I've seen them, there was a sick fish in the tank that sort of served as an "incubator" for a lot of bacteria, which in turn overwhelms the otherwise healthy fish.
Treating is difficult, but you could try Kanaplex in the water....

 

[eelman]

Regarding the pictures in the first post. What I see:
- a floor and sides of the pond/pool the animals are kept in are tiled. That seems to me rather abrasive/uncomfortable surface.
- abrasions on the underside of the ray where the chest cartilage is raised due the the animal being malnourished.

I’m no shark or ray expert. But seeing the pictures and reading over this topic makes me wonder if the living conditions these animals are kept in are actually suitable to keep these animals healthy longterm? Or are they the root cause of the problems?

so we’re clarifying that you have read the part where I raised these animals from pups, right? The fact that I’ve had these animals for 3 years? If you’re not a shark and Ray expert, the comments aren’t necessary. I’m looking for solutions at this point.

It is a latex rubber pool pond, with very fine sand, it is a pretty common thing to do for sharks and rays. And it’s much more suitable in my opinion than putting them in a small glass tank.

These animals eat every two days and they eat until they refuse food, they are fed clams, tilapia, shrimp, squid, mollusk and occasionally salmon.

They are the farthest thing from living in a malnourished environment. Even though it may appear that way.

 

[eelman]

A short video is better than a still photo, hosting on YouTube works pretty well.

With bacterial infections, the bacteria involved are virtually always present in the aquarium, only when fish are compromised in some way (injury, poor condition, other disease issues) do they become infectious. Primary bacterial diseases are VERY rare. The few times I've seen them, there was a sick fish in the tank that sort of served as an "incubator" for a lot of bacteria, which in turn overwhelms the otherwise healthy fish.
Treating is difficult, but you could try Kanaplex in the water....

This was them literally early last week, for size reference

I have added about 10 new fish, like I said both bat ray shipments had other fish in them. But none have passed, or shown any signs of illness aside from the banana wrasse. But he still eats like crazy

 

[eelman]

This was them literally early last week, for size reference

I have added about 10 new fish, like I said both bat ray shipments had other fish in them. But none have passed, or shown any signs of illness aside from the banana wrasse. But he still eats like crazy

At this point, is my only option to wait and see if I treat the water?

Again, I just don’t understand because the bamboo was a recent addition, but it came from the same source and water that the other fish had been coming from, so I guess, theoretically if it was a parasite it could have caught it before it got to me?

There’s just so many odd variables here

Every other fish ate great in the pond, I just don’t know what to say or to do at this point.

I can try to treat it, I just wanna know if it is metals in the water if I remove them from that water that should fix that right? And if it is a parasite prazi should help with that? And if I treat it with your other suggestion then what is there any other potential outlier? I’ve talked to so many people and really nobody understands what’s going on, not knocking on your expertise, I’m just frustrated that this isn’t more obvious. I’d really like to avoid whatever the hell this is going forward. I’ve kept fish for 13 years and I’ve never had this happen before like this where there wasn’t a direct answer

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

At this point, is my only option to wait and see if I treat the water?

Again, I just don’t understand because the bamboo was a recent addition, but it came from the same source and water that the other fish had been coming from, so I guess, theoretically if it was a parasite it could have caught it before it got to me?

There’s just so many odd variables here

Every other fish ate great in the pond, I just don’t know what to say or to do at this point.

I can try to treat it, I just wanna know if it is metals in the water if I remove them from that water that should fix that right? And if it is a parasite prazi should help with that? And if I treat it with your other suggestion then what is there any other potential outlier? I’ve talked to so many people and really nobody understands what’s going on, not knocking on your expertise, I’m just frustrated that this isn’t more obvious. I’d really like to avoid whatever the hell this is going forward. I’ve kept fish for 13 years and I’ve never had this happen before like this where there wasn’t a direct answer

The problem is - without solid, treatable visual symptoms, there really isn't a good way to give advice for a treatment. I offered the idea of treating with Kanaplex, not because I think that it is a bacterial disease for sure, but rather, there are not any other differential diagnoses.

In some cases, proper treatment requires diagnostic tools beyond just simple visual clues. In the case of my public aquarium work, in cases like this, we would call in our aquatic veterinarian. Even then, they are often "stumped", or the true cause of the problem only shows up in histopathology samples, long after the fish have died (ugh).

I still think that the Poly Filter will at least grossly tell you that there is a heavy metal issue (because the filter media changes color). If you use enough Poly Filter, it will also remove enough toxins to alleviate the problem.

I don't think this is a metazoan (multi-cellular) parasite - the timing is wrong. It could be a protozoan issue, like gill amoeba, but diagnosing that requires a gill biopsy and a microscope. That's why I "fell back" on the possibility that it could be bacterial....

 

[eelman]

The problem is - without solid, treatable visual symptoms, there really isn't a good way to give advice for a treatment. I offered the idea of treating with Kanaplex, not because I think that it is a bacterial disease for sure, but rather, there are not any other differential diagnoses.

In some cases, proper treatment requires diagnostic tools beyond just simple visual clues. In the case of my public aquarium work, in cases like this, we would call in our aquatic veterinarian. Even then, they are often "stumped", or the true cause of the problem only shows up in histopathology samples, long after the fish have died (ugh).

I still think that the Poly Filter will at least grossly tell you that there is a heavy metal issue (because the filter media changes color). If you use enough Poly Filter, it will also remove enough toxins to alleviate the problem.

I don't think this is a metazoan (multi-cellular) parasite - the timing is wrong. It could be a protozoan issue, like gill amoeba, but diagnosing that requires a gill biopsy and a microscope. That's why I "fell back" on the possibility that it could be bacterial....

Yes, I’ve got the poly filter ordered, I really appreciate you taking the time to help diagnose this, the bamboo shark has unfortunately passed, all the other animals seem to be in a stable condition with the horn shark actually moving a fair bit today, once I have the poly filter in I will update with some results at this rate my hope obviously is that it is parasitic or environmental as I think it can recover from this,

Going forward as I’m moving down to South Florida and plan to catch many stingrays to house in a very large environment what would be my best case to avoid something like this from happening in the future? I really do try my best to do my research and take care of these animals.

 

[Louis Z]

Very disheartening to hear . I am not a shark or ray expert. I can tell you I have learned the hard way about trusting others water , quarantine, treatment process . Someone can tell me they have done it already , but I do it myself anyway . It takes me months before I allow a new treated and quarantined fish into my existing system . I want to make sure nothing gets past my protocol for new acquisitions . The buck stops with me and I am fully to blame if I introduce something to my existing tank . I am not trying to be condescending . Just words to help with your next endeavor . Good that you are getting a new RoDI . Keep track of your gallons produced no way to tell if your local water provider added something to the water supply . I just recently had a mouthful of something bad tasting in the water when I was brushing my teeth. Your carbon filters are the first line of defense . In the rodi , so change out your carbon filters often . Stray voltage is a booger for sharks and ray’s they have all those sensitive pores . I had a cord that the plastic was either chewed or degraded that produced a stray voltage . Look for metal poisoning from pumps and magnet impellers . I had an a plastic coated impeller on a pump split . Started to loose my urchins . So I had to methodically go thru all of my equipment .Anything dripping from high above any metal with condensation? Air condition vent ? Just throwing all things out there . I hope you figure it out .

 

[eelman]

Very disheartening to hear . I am not a shark or ray expert. I can tell you I have learned the hard way about trusting others water , quarantine, treatment process . Someone can tell me they have done it already , but I do it myself anyway . It takes me months before I allow a new treated and quarantined fish into my existing system . I want to make sure nothing gets past my protocol for new acquisitions . The buck stops with me and I am fully to blame if I introduce something to my existing tank . I am not trying to be condescending . Just words to help with your next endeavor . Good that you are getting a new RoDI . Keep track of your gallons produced no way to tell if your local water provider added something to the water supply . I just recently had a mouthful of something bad tasting in the water when I was brushing my teeth. Your carbon filters are the first line of defense . In the rodi , so change out your carbon filters often . Stray voltage is a booger for sharks and ray’s they have all those sensitive pores . I had a cord that the plastic was either chewed or degraded that produced a stray voltage . Look for metal poisoning from pumps and magnet impellers . I had an a plastic coated impeller on a pump split . Started to loose my urchins . So I had to methodically go thru all of my equipment .Anything dripping from high above any metal with condensation? Air condition vent ? Just throwing all things out there . I hope you figure it out .

Yes, I fully take the blame and responsibility on this. Usually I’d quarantine, lately I have been getting fish from a place I trust and have good relations with. He’s just as upset about the process as I have been and not that I’ve asked but he’s already readily offered to replace all lost fish.

I will be quarantining them going forward, I just failed to follow the guidelines with sharks and rays, to be honest I’ve never even considered to quarantine them the same way I would other fish and that’s neglect on my end. I have had these guys for so long that I failed to even consider they aren’t bulletproof.

I’m so mad at myself for the process that I’ve considered just quarantining any new ones, moving all the old ones, while I start a entire new set up for the most part, new water, new sand and just moving The mechanical filtration over.

I know there isn’t a relationship with fish in the same dynamic as other animals but I really built a hard earned relationship with my Cortez ray and he was like a dog, could pick him up, flip him around and last week I was just telling my friends how much size he’s put on recently, it’s just one of those things

I just got a new pump 2 weeks ago, I will have to look into it, also a new seaweed magnet for the parrot fish, hell I added so much it feels impossible to keep up with it all.

I’m going to start with the poly filter and cleansing out the water, then going to set up the new rodi unit, needed a 200gpd 7 stage anyways, still plan to rest the water for metals other ways as well.

I appreciate you chiming in.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Yes, I’ve got the poly filter ordered, I really appreciate you taking the time to help diagnose this, the bamboo shark has unfortunately passed, all the other animals seem to be in a stable condition with the horn shark actually moving a fair bit today, once I have the poly filter in I will update with some results at this rate my hope obviously is that it is parasitic or environmental as I think it can recover from this,

Going forward as I’m moving down to South Florida and plan to catch many stingrays to house in a very large environment what would be my best case to avoid something like this from happening in the future? I really do try my best to do my research and take care of these animals.

I was reading a veterinary text last night and came across a case similar to your bamboo shark - that turned out to be septicemia. They treated it with force-fed antibiotics.

Going forward - not sure what to tell you, since I wasn’t able to pinpoint the issue here….

 

[Louis Z]

If it was a bacterial infection that sure was a very lethal and highly contagious bacteria . I thought I read that the sharks can be affected by velvet . If so , that can spread like wildfire and cause high mortality rates . Is it possible for velvet to develop and then allow a secondary infection to set in causing the septicemia .? I do think it would have been worth getting an autopsy because they were sharks/rays involved.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

If it was a bacterial infection that sure was a very lethal and highly contagious bacteria . I thought I read that the sharks can be affected by velvet . If so , that can spread like wildfire and cause high mortality rates . Is it possible for velvet to develop and then allow a secondary infection to set in causing the septicemia .? I do think it would have been worth getting an autopsy because they were sharks/rays involved.

The trouble with a velvet/Amyloodinium diagnosis is that the bony fish were unaffected - velvet would have taken those out first....

 

[ReneReef]

so we’re clarifying that you have read the part where I raised these animals from pups, right? The fact that I’ve had these animals for 3 years? If you’re not a shark and Ray expert, the comments aren’t necessary. I’m looking for solutions at this point.

It is a latex rubber pool pond, with very fine sand, it is a pretty common thing to do for sharks and rays. And it’s much more suitable in my opinion than putting them in a small glass tank.

These animals eat every two days and they eat until they refuse food, they are fed clams, tilapia, shrimp, squid, mollusk and occasionally salmon.

They are the farthest thing from living in a malnourished environment. Even though it may appear that way.

Thank you for your kind words.

I don't care what you think of my reply of me. I care for the animals you try to keep. And you are currently failing.

Me not having experience with sharks or rays. And other doing what you do are fallacies.
Your response shows me that uou care more about your ego, than the wellbeing of your animals.

As Jay has pointed out all sick animals are very skinny. That doesn’t happen overnight. That takes weeks/months. Yet, you with all your experience failed to notice.

A rubber pool with an abrasive zand and actively digging animals seems like a very bad idea. That stuff may be safe for humans, it may not be for sensitive animals living there long term. Particles will get “sanded” off. Those and any leachables may be harmful.

Don’t worry, this will be my last response to you.
I looked through your post history. I have not seen so much disease, and death in a row. I don’t want to see anymore of it, so I’m putting you on ignore now.

 

[Akumazeto]

Hello everyone unfortunately my luck just keeps getting better, maybe the bat Ray passing was not such a coincidence after all, he arrived Thursday and passed that following night following this incident now all of my other sharks and rays have suddenly become lethargic, no one is eating I found my bamboo shark laying on his back this morning and one of my Cal rays looks like he went to war.

Water parameters are

Salinity 1.026
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 10
Ph 7.9

I did a 600 gallon water change using my RODI water Tuesday two days before all of this happened,

There are 10 fish in this tank with them, including puffers, groupers tangs, grasses, eels none of the fish whatsoever are affected by apparently whatever is going on.

I will attach some photos of the two most lethargic animals in the tank, the bamboo shark, and one of the rays

This has all happened at once overnight.

I have just primed the water just in case there are somehow any trace elements of copper or some type of metal in the water

What would be my best plan of action?

I just purchased garlic, fresh food and prazi pro,

I checked the water parameters myself and then just drove up to my local fish shop as well and both parameters matched I even had them test the salinity on multiple units because the bamboo shark will not stop itching the gills,

I haven’t added any new sharks or raised, and none of the fish appeared to have any parasites or acting anyway they would

The new race and sharks that recently got here both are experiencing similar problems to my other sharks and rays

Yet the timing seems too fast to have onset anything, and I don’t know where they would’ve potentially caught a parasite.

I greatly appreciate any input and any type of course of action I can take. Definitely do not want to see my animal suffer.

Thanks

That’s really concerning, especially with the sharks and rays being affected while the fish are completely fine. I’d be looking closely at oxygen/flow and especially anything that changed during or after that huge water change. Sharks and rays can react badly to sudden changes even when the basic parameters look perfect. I’d also be cautious about adding multiple meds right away until you have a better idea what’s actually going on. Hope you can get them stabilized.