Let's Talk About Captive-Bred Fish Prices

[Louis Z]

I have only flown thru Hawaii never dove there was always a stopping point on my way to guam . i have dove extensively out in the pacific years before the coral bleaching was prevalent . I have been to many Caribbean islands numerous times in the 90s , I have seen good reefs would look like . and in some places I have seen the updates from videos YouTube divers have recorded . I do watch and Do see changes in the number of fish populations drop and especially the Caribbean has taken a beating in coral cover . I may not be diving as much as I used to . But looking at the amateurish videos on YouTube I get glances of the degradation. Also the reports of bleaching in many pacific islands and nations is always in the news. Algae is always present and in larger qty on reefs that are subject to climate extremes , pollution runoff , and collection of algae grazers and destructive fishing practice . Once algae
sets in , coral takes years and to recover . Every algae grazer is Important whether it’s an invert or fish . What population you may have will be important for reef recovery if reef degradation occurs year after year and algae takes hold

 

[Louis Z]

So I pose a question of Hawaiian reefs . Has there been no degradation of reefs over the last 60 years .

 

[Clowning_Around72]

Now for those that want altruism , I say start your own breeding process and give away your product . I don’t see altruism when I see prices on torch coral and sps and anemones . Even though those are hobbyist produced . Those prices are sky high . . I see Duncan heads around 20and up . These Duncan’s can be easily produced . Even I was producing them , but not selling . I can’t fathom the price on hobbyist prices for mushrooms even the plain Jane common ones . 20+per shroom, I refuse to buy the flavor of the month sps, torch and anemones . I am not complaining about hobbyists selling them for market price . Good for them and for the overall hobby . I am not labeling them a cancer . It’s better to get it from them rather than pulling from the wild . The wild is shrinking and under a multitude of threats . So you better support Aq-c, mariculture , it may be the only thing you get in The future. If we continue to see bleaching events year over year . The coral reefs can’t recover . Countries will close down the collecting hobby even though the harvesting of fishes for food and feedstock will always strip the reefs more so than the hobby.

Hard to see altruism when things are expensive in the first place and things take time to produce. I see it more often on the freshwater side. At least, I am more likely to give away plant cuttings and fish from my freshwater systems than I am from my saltwater...because of price alone

 

[ReefED!]

Just look at how many new species are coming online through captive breeding efforts - we are in a new frontier where we are getting difficult fish that are hardier and better adapted to tank life

The profit incentive is driving that and funding the trials and tribulations along the way - yellow tangs and mandarins have probably enabled so much R&D on difficult fish

Rose Anthias were just captive bred by Surge

Blue spot jawfish by De Jong

Gem Tangs by Quality Marine (this one is going to drive down costs)

We have CB regal angelfish and many other angelfish starting to be CB

It’s such a huge benefit to the hobby but conservation in general

I just can’t get why people would be upset about it - I hope Biota gets rich and builds a CB empire

A third of my income goes to fake daycare center fraud anyway - at least this is benefitting the world

 

[Tony Thompson]

Yellow tangs now 260 on masterfisch, was getting close to 500 two years ago.

Just checked masterfisch.eu website, says 485 Euros ? for CB YT.

 

[hatfielj]

I've been thinking about something, and I thought I'd post it here and get some feedback from the community on it. I've heard some people say that captive-bred fish are just going to be perpetually expensive. I'm thinking about yellow tangs, which we used to be able to pick up for $40 (or less) at the LFS, but they now retail for at least $200-$300. Other CB fish are even more expensive than that!

Photo by Frags2Fishes

However, I got to thinking about this, and I got a bit hopeful...because the trend is not always toward expense. For example, designer clownfish have been notoriously (dare I say OBNOXIOUSLY) expensive in the past, but today you can pick up a lot of those same designer clownfish at a lot cheaper prices than you could before. My LFS has a whole slew of them right now for $39.99 each. (And yes, I do know that specific "ultra cool" designs still go for a lot, but I'm talking about general trends.) And before anyone calls me out on clown breeding being easy and that breeding these happens in hobbyist homes (and so the market floods...), I'd like to point out that mandarin dragonets are another example of a CB fish that isn't super expensive despite their breeding being beyond most of our hobbyist capabilities.

Photo by Biota

So...what do you think? Are captive-bred fish going to be perpetually expensive, or can I hope to buy the ones that are currently expensive at cheaper prices in the future? I'll tell ya, my dream fish is a yurple tang...I know, I know...for some of you those are an abomination, but I love 'em, and I hope maybe someday they'll be within my budget range. ...a guy can dream...

Photo by Quality Marine.

They will jack up prices whenever they want to make more money just like grocery stores do.
Not only that, but these fish will be more susceptible to disease than wild caught because of the limited gene pool they use for breeding and the lack of natural selection over time.
Say no to captive bred. Captive bred is a last resort if the world's oceans start losing biodiversity, but it shouldn't be used to replace sustainable harvesting now.

 

[hatfielj]

The point is Biota captive breading fish does not preclude you from buying a wild caught fish. Therefore they can not harm the hobby as the only impact they have is providing another option….

Biota is trying to get wild caught fish banned right now as we speak. So, does that change your opinion on Biota? They aren't harmlessly just trying to give you "another option." They are trying to gain a monopoly and jack up the prices and force you to buy from them.
Not only that, but you're mistaken in assuming captive bred fish are healthier. They may be adapted to captivity better than wild caught, but they are bred from a limited gene pool and raised in a completely protected environment, which means over time they could actually become weaker than wild caught in terms of disease resistance. Wild caught fish are hardier because of what they have to survive in order to even make it to a size in which they are caught and sold. They have natural selection working at always improving their genes.

 

[ReefED!]

Biota is trying to get wild caught fish banned right now as we speak. So, does that change your opinion on Biota? They aren't harmlessly just trying to give you "another option." They are trying to gain a monopoly and jack up the prices and force you to buy from them.
Not only that, but you're mistaken in assuming captive bred fish are healthier. They may be adapted to captivity better than wild caught, but they are bred from a limited gene pool and raised in a completely protected environment, which means over time they could actually become weaker than wild caught in terms of disease resistance. Wild caught fish are hardier because of what they have to survive in order to even make it to a size in which they are caught and sold. They have natural selection working at always improving their genes.

Biota is lobbying for their agenda and interests

Every major company you purchase from does this - I agree it looks shady though

They have a 5 and probably 10 year plan which needs profit to drive the R&D on other hard fish and hybrids - it’s just how it is.

I don’t buy the CB downsides one bit - these aren’t neon tetras or even clownfish being mass inbred for color morphs

Everything we know suggests that CB are more resilient for our aquariums than wild caught whether it’s disease or just adaptation

Everyone thought blue spots need cold water. That was accepted hobby lore.

De Jong is breeding them at reef temps and they’re accustomed to that out the gate

How many blue spots come in and die before even reaching hobbyists? Probably a lot

Then there’s supply chain issues starting with collection which we all know isn’t the best - sometimes it even involves unscrupulous means

I’d wager CB gives us way more disease free fish because of a more refined supply chain.

How many leopard wrasses would stop dying in the hobby en masse if they were CB?

Copperbands?

 

[Clowning_Around72]

Biota is lobbying for their agenda and interests

Every major company you purchase from does this - I agree it looks shady though

They have a 5 and probably 10 year plan which needs profit to drive the R&D on other hard fish and hybrids - it’s just how it is.

I don’t buy the CB downsides one bit - these aren’t neon tetras or even clownfish being mass inbred for color morphs

Everything we know suggests that CB are more resilient for our aquariums than wild caught whether it’s disease or just adaptation

Everyone thought blue spots need cold water. That was accepted hobby lore.

De Jong is breeding them at reef temps and they’re accustomed to that out the gate

How many blue spots come in and die before even reaching hobbyists? Probably a lot

Then there’s supply chain issues starting with collection which we all know isn’t the best - sometimes it even involves unscrupulous means

I’d wager CB gives us way more disease free fish because of a more refined supply chain.

How many leopard wrasses would stop dying in the hobby en masse if they were CB?

Copperbands?

I believe the kamohara blenny was also considered a cold water fish before captive breeding took over.

 

[Clowning_Around72]

Although, I do not know what organ systems may be impacted by long term maintenance in warmer temps than they might naturally spend time in.

I know with goldfish some varieties still benefit immensely from occasional seasons.

 

[Louis Z]

Say no to captive bred. Captive bred is a last resort if the world's oceans start losing biodiversity, but it shouldn't be used to replace sustainable harvesting now.

Uuhhh , reefs are already declining. If you wait till the very end you end up losing wild animals with varying genetic diversity . It takes time to learn how to captive breed every species and there are thousands of species . Currently probably only know .01 % of all species . If we follow your idea . Then the hobby is in trouble .

 

[Louis Z]

but they are bred from a limited gene pool and raised

I may have missed this . Where did you see this report ?

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

Uuhhh , reefs are already declining. If you wait till the very end you end up losing wild animals with varying genetic diversity . It takes time to learn how to captive breed every species and there are thousands of species . Currently probably only know .01 % of all species . If we follow your idea . Then the hobby is in trouble .

the thing is Louis you can apply your logic to anything on earth. Our rainforest and forest have been degraded, our soil has been paved over etc etc. does that mean that we should stop everything? No. You can’t paint with such a broad brush without making a mess. The yellow tang fishery is a West Hawaii thing. Is the reef degraded there? No it isn’t. Not at all. It’s thriving in fact. As are the fish populations. I’ve spent 15 thousand hours under water on this coast line and many thousands more around the islands and the world. You could say I’ve spent years of my life, UNDERWATER(lol)

All too often, I see people waaaay overstating the situation and overlooking the obvious fact that the reefs are growing. They’re doing exactly what they’ve always done and will continue to do so regardless of our desires. Limiting communities that live in these places from wisely using their resources does not have the effect you may think it does. In fact, that usually creates a more destructive outcome. Our reefs are well managed, they’re growing well and our fishing pressure is minimal. I would strongly recommend you educate yourself on WHY aquarium fisheries are so sustainable. Once you fully understand the life strategies of these fish, the pelagic broadcast spawners, you will realize why the fishery has very little impact on the overall resource. We are either there to catch a handful of recruits or they’ll die any way. It’s just nature. Take care

 

[Louis Z]

Have you seen the caribe . This is what happens when everyone disregards and lets things happen “naturally “ . They have lost grouper populations , parrot species are down elk horn , stag horn are on life support . Functionally extinct in many areas . Brain coral and pillar coral following . Bleaching , pollution runoff . Overfishing , They are dying by a thousand cuts from every direction . And the offending heat is returning in successive years , not just once in a while . I don’t care about how many islands you have been to . That doesn’t change the fact . Doesn’t Hawaii have bacterial count warnings on the beaches . How much fish is farmed vs wildcaught to supply all those nice restaurants? .how does Hawaiian islands handle their fecal waste? How many tourists bump and step on coral? How mush sunscreen is floating in the ocean ? What about all the plastic pollutants that were washed into the bays after the wildfires . Fish migrate and fish settle on healthy reefs. It’s the sound of a reef that helps them find their way . I am not against taking fishes for the hobby , but strict controls need to be in place . What you think is sustainable May be according to current trends . I would love to ask the elders that once spearfished as kids . I want to know their side of the story . Not just your point of view .

 

[Louis Z]

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/12/hawaiian-knowledge-western-science-reef-recovery/. You can tell me your side , but this is one of many sources that tell me otherwise .

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/12/hawaiian-knowledge-western-science-reef-recovery/. You can tell me your side , but this is one of many sources that tell me otherwise

Think what you want. I would caution you basing your position on what you read in the tilted newspaper in Hawaii that’s clearly ideological. That doesn’t represent the locals here in Hawaii. But believe what you want.

 

[Louis Z]

I will think what I want I have an independent brain . I am not concerned about your opinion anymore . I am just bringing evidence to inform others . I am not here to argue anymore with you , it’s pointless, but I sure do want to show opposing sides to to the narrative you want to peddle . . Let everyone think what they want . Not swayed by one’s opinion .I don’t want others to just follow you alone .

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X23011797

 

[fish_collector]

A third of my income goes to fake daycare center fraud anyway - at least this is benefitting the world

 

[Hawaiian AQ]

Wo

I will think what I want I have an independent brain . I am not concerned about your opinion anymore . I am just bringing evidence to inform others . I am not here to argue anymore with you , it’s pointless, but I sure do want to show opposing sides to to the narrative you want to peddle . . Let everyone think what they want . Not swayed by one’s opinion .I don’t want others to just follow you alone .

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X23011797

wow you’re very rude. I was nothing but respectful with you but you seem to be very arrogant and ignorant. Have a nice day

 

[Louis Z]

I have been nothing but civil . I just see that you are very opinionated and not worth the finger exercise . Sorry for not being a sheep