Let's Talk About Captive-Bred Fish Prices

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Ok, thank you for that. I will keep that in mind next time I am talking to someone spending money on a hobby, and then complaining it costs too much to do it in a way that doesn’t hurt the planet, and so proceeds to ignore the environmental costs of their fun.
But it doesn’t hurt the planet.

Do you have even the slightest understanding of what a renewable resource is? Furthermore, what is your level of expertise when it comes to reef fish reproductive rates and recruitment? It’s like amateur hour here on R2R
 
I disagree with your opinions, and see little reason to debate with you. There are always strongly different opinions when it comes to using natural resources we all share. History does not suggest that those wanting to use such resources will not overuse them if given the opportunity, to all of our detriment.
Randy, you are a little late to the table.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in the aquarium industry for decades. It is part of the ongoing discussion in the aquaculture industry as well. Not long ago Washington State had a bounty on farm raised Atlantic Salmon that escaped from a fish farm pens in the Puget Sound area. As a result Fish and Game was concerned about the genetic damage that could result if Atlantic Salmon bred with the with wild Pacific Salmon. This is based on science not conjecture.

Sustainable fisheries are the best chance for many reasons. I am not against Biota or other companies breeding fish. Most of the freshwater fish are farm raised. I am against the idea that it is your way or the highway. Your holier than thou attitude and attacks seem a little out of range for a scientist. In science do we not look for repeatable results?

Intensive breeding has repeatable results. That is why most pet owners are against puppy mill operations. Same with high population fish breeding and rearing operations. I am just asking you to balance the approach since breeding operations will need new brood stock to maintain long term genetic success. If they cut off the avenue for anyone but themselves it is shortsighted and self serving. We can have both and sustain collectors and captive breeding programs. By the way many captive "breed" are actually collected during wild spawing events then tank reared. There are articles on this online if you are interested.
 
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Board of Land and Natural Resources


We are writing to reaffirm our support for the West Hawaiʻi Aquarium fishery. In 2020 we joined our


colleagues in a letter published in West Hawaiʻi Today outlining why we accept the data demonstrating


that this fishery is clearly sustainable. Since that time, nothing has changed to alter that conclusion.


In this era of social media, it has become easy to affect public opinion with campaigns of disinformation,


hyperbole, and untested hypotheses presented as facts. The public is often confused or unwilling to


critically evaluate such statements, and too often accept false evidence on face value. The West Hawaiʻi


Aquarium fishery has been under assault by such a campaign for many years, even though the populations


of key aquarium species, such as the Yellow Tang and Kole, have increased over the past twenty


years. The fishery has not been without fault during its 50 years in existence, but these incidents have


been the exception and do not, in our experience, represent the high ethical standards that these


fishermen exercise during the collection, care and handling of live fishes.


The BLNR has a rare opportunity to turn this controversy into a teachable moment for the public. You


have access to decades of data methodically collected by DLNR biologists, as well as detailed reports


presented every five years to the Legislature. Compare these data, analyses and conclusions to the


statements made by opponents to the fishery. They have no comparable, long-term data sets and


therefore resort to using anecdotes, fear, and untested hypotheses to support their agenda. At this


pivotal moment, you can act in the public interest to separate facts based on data, from arguments that


are data-free and therefore baseless.


Science can provide conclusive evidence supporting this fishery as sustainable. There is also ample


evidence that the fishermen act ethically in their treatment of the animals from the moment they are


collected until they are shipped to their destination. Philosophical, moral, and cultural arguments are


mostly beyond what science can resolve. However, we feel that the fishermen and their advocates have


provided an excellent review of these topics in their EIS. In addition, we find it difficult to justify shutting


down a fishery that strives to keep fishes alive and in good health, while continuing to permit many of the


same species to be killed and eaten. We do not contest the argument that killing fish for food is


acceptable (provided it is done sustainably), but aquariums also have significant value, as evidenced by


the number of aquatic biologists who were inspired by their home aquariums to pursue careers in


science. It is hypocritical to claim killing fishes is moral but keeping them in aquariums is not.


Please take the time to study the data reports prepared by your staff biologists based on thousands of


transects that required many, many hundreds of man-hours to collect and to analyze. They did not set


out to demonstrate that the fishery is sustainable but that is clearly the conclusion after 20+ years of


effort. Campaigns of disinformation should be recognized and rejected. Use your authority to establish


a process whereby data and science become the basis for decisions. Permanently closing what many


consider the best monitored and regulated inshore coral-reef fishery in the world, would be a precedent


with significant implications for all other Hawaiʻi fisheries.


Bruce A. Carlson, Ph.D.


Richard Pyle, Ph.D.


William J. Walsh, Ph.DThe 1998 law which established the West Hawaiʹi Regional Fishery Management Area


(WHRFMA) required the DLNR/DAR to present a report to the Legislature every five years on


the effectiveness of the WHRFMA. To do so it was necessary to study how the new regulations


were working. To accomplish this, DAR in association with the University of Hawaiʹi Hilo,


established a rigorous, scientific monitoring program in 1999 to track changes in reef fish


populations and coral reef benthic communities. Over the past 20 years, 82 survey divers have


conducted over 2,100 underwater surveys for this monitoring project. Additionally, a number of


other scientists have conducted research in West Hawaiʹi relating to aquarium issues and/or


targeted species.


The monitoring data show that the regulations put in place have been very effective in managing


aquarium collecting in West Hawaiʹi. The West Hawaiʹi Regional Fishery Management Area is


among the best studied and most effective fishery management efforts to date, and scientific


data clearly show that management is working with population increases of the primary


targets. For example, as noted in the 2019 DLNR/DAR legislative report, the populations of the


two most heavily collected species of West Hawai'i aquarium fish, Yellow Tang and Kole, which


collectively made up 92% of total aquarium catch in (FY17/l8), more than doubled over the past


two decades. Their populations even increased in the areas open to collecting likely due to


spillover from protected areas.


Concern expressed about the threat of climate changes such as coral bleaching on reefs


warrants extreme caution in reviewing activities such as aquarium collecting. This concern over


coral bleaching is certainly warranted but somewhat surprising given that the Department of


Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) leadership has not implemented the 2017 Coral Bleaching


Recovery Plan which was developed by DAR and the University of Hawaiʹi based on the input of


over 100 scientists and resource managers from around the world. The goal of the Recovery


Plan was to implement management actions to promote coral recovery after bleaching in


Hawaiʹi and the scope of the Plan was much more comprehensive than just focusing on


aquarium collecting.


As experienced Hawaiʹi marine science researchers with a direct/intimate understanding of this


issue, we want to re-emphasize that the strong support we are expressing for the fishery is due


entirely to the survey efforts and results of the DAR research team. There is a huge amount of


data and other information showing that the aquarium fishery is sustainably managed and that


the system works. This type of science-based management should be a model for other


fisheries in Hawaii.


William Walsh Ph.D. Ivor Williams Ph.D. Brian Tissot Ph.D. Leon Hallacher Ph.D. Bruce Carlson Ph.D. Charles Birkeland Ph.D. Jeremy Claisse Ph.D. Mark Christie Ph.D. Richard Pyle Ph.D. Leighton Taylor Ph.D. Randy Kosaki Ph.D. .


Cynthia Hunter Ph.D.


Brian Bowen Ph.D.


Brian Zgliczynski Ph.D.


Jeff Ebel Ph.D.


Alan Friedlander Ph.D.


Kosta Stamoulis Ph.D.


Delisse Ortiz Ph.D.


Jan Dierking Ph.D.


Rob Toonen Ph.D.


Jim Beets Ph
 
Do you have even the slightest understanding of what a renewable resource is? Furthermore, what is your level of expertise when it comes to reef fish reproductive rates and recruitment? It’s like amateur hour here on R2R


This sort of extreme overreaction to a discussion is exactly why I will not discuss with you. You know exactly zero about what I know and don’t know except what I have posted here. I’m will no longer participate in this thread, and you can go back to your echo chamber where anyone disagreeing must be uninformed.
 
This sort of extreme overreaction to a discussion is exactly why I will not discuss with you. You know exactly zero about what I know and don’t know except what I have posted here. I’m will no longer participate in this thread, and you can go back to your echo chamber where anyone disagreeing must be uninformed.
I’m only returning the same energy you led with…brow beating people for not agreeing with you and your worldview. Turnabout is fair play, no?

You want to characterize my position as an echo chamber, but is it really even my position I’m echoing? I’m informing you what the science says. If you are clearly unaware, then yes, you’re un informed
 
I feel like this discussion has gone off the rails. That said, I see some viewpoints that are present in the book fossil future by alex epstein (in terms of environmental impact) popping up here.

That said, I think this discussion should go back towards more of a:

Is the research progress (as well as environmental impact benefit for some species) worth it for the cost we spend for captive bred fish?


Since captive breeding is beneficial from a hobbyist and researchers point of view (some of us here are both hobbyist and researchers). Plus, many here would breed fish even if there was no profit in it.

Some clownfish species probably would have gone extinct had captive breeding not met demand.


That said, some species are not worth breeding at a company scale. Due to lack of profits/demand and the ease in meeting that demand with wild fish (which we need to collect to some degree anyway to maintain broomstock and occasionally add to get nicer or different fish).

It does seem quite reasonable that the yellow tang would be a species that is not necessarily required to be obtained captive bred.

If anything, I think breeding the yellow tang has done more good for other zebrasoma species that are now available as captive bred alternative that were otherwise rare or collected from a limited range than the good it has done for the yellow tang.
 
Hi @Hawaiian AQ, I think we may have had a conversation in the past?

I have followed the legal process very closely over the years and the last meeting I watched live with the DNLR, it was agreed along with indigenous representation (as part of the legal process) on the final regulations on the issuance of licences.

I was also aware of the side issue of Bill SB505, however I was of the understanding that this failed?

I was of the understanding that the final process is a public hearing on March 31st, however, my understanding of the public hearing is simply to hear concerns and as such has no real legal weight. ?

Any updates would be very much appreciated.
 
For anyone else wishing to be updated on the process I have posted the following links.

PUBLIC HEARING DATE, TIME, AND LOCATION(S)

Tuesday, March 31, 2026, 5:30 p.m. – 8:30 p.m.

Wednesday, April 1, 2026, 4:30 p.m. – 8:30 p.m.

  • Kealakehe High School Cafeteria (IN PERSON ONLY)
    74-5000 Puohulihuli Street
    Kailua-Kona, Hawaiʻi 96740

For those wising to read the "current" proposals, future and past public consultation and the past revisions, all of the information can be found here:

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/rules-and-public-notices/
I will track back to my last comments on the subject and also post on that thread just for continuity.
 
There has been history of the beginning aquaculture companies going belly up. It’s good to have an alternative company stay afloat to provide aquacultured fishes . I see that biota provides a platform for other companies to sell their stock or has become reseller of the stock . Allows those companies to focus on what they do rather than setting up a process for direct selling to consumers .PITA to sell directly to consumer I would love if my lfs would stock more AQ-C fish . My lfs make their own decisions. Requesting my lfs to buy more aq-c hasn’t provided any results. Biota is an outlet for me to buy from . Where does it say that Biota can’t make money to pay their employees , facilities and expenses and provide a life for owners . Biota is not the only supplier of AQ-C fish , but getting the chance to buy them for me is a win calling them a cancer to me is stupid . Where is your voice on the multi-billionaires and those in power in the white house . Those are money grubbing . Hopefully u are on other forums complaining about them and calling them a cancer .
 
As for sustainability . There are always bad apples that don’t conform to the rules . They work outside the rules to make a profit. They don’t care about the fishery or sustainability . It is pure profit until it collapses and they move on to the next . The waters you want to protect are not protected and watched 24/7. Isn’t Hawaii having an issue with invasive species of algae smothering reefs . Do all the reefs in all the islands show large numbers of algae grazers ? You may show sustainability but those you take may have been the ones to repopulate barren areas that were once productive reefs . Have all those reefs recovered?
 
Now for those that want altruism , I say start your own breeding process and give away your product . I don’t see altruism when I see prices on torch coral and sps and anemones . Even though those are hobbyist produced . Those prices are sky high . . I see Duncan heads around 20and up . These Duncan’s can be easily produced . Even I was producing them , but not selling . I can’t fathom the price on hobbyist prices for mushrooms even the plain Jane common ones . 20+per shroom, I refuse to buy the flavor of the month sps, torch and anemones . I am not complaining about hobbyists selling them for market price . Good for them and for the overall hobby . I am not labeling them a cancer . It’s better to get it from them rather than pulling from the wild . The wild is shrinking and under a multitude of threats . So you better support Aq-c, mariculture , it may be the only thing you get in The future. If we continue to see bleaching events year over year . The coral reefs can’t recover . Countries will close down the collecting hobby even though the harvesting of fishes for food and feedstock will always strip the reefs more so than the hobby.
 
Hi @Hawaiian AQ, I think we may have had a conversation in the past?

I have followed the legal process very closely over the years and the last meeting I watched live with the DNLR, it was agreed along with indigenous representation (as part of the legal process) on the final regulations on the issuance of licences.

I was also aware of the side issue of Bill SB505, however I was of the understanding that this failed?

I was of the understanding that the final process is a public hearing on March 31st, however, my understanding of the public hearing is simply to hear concerns and as such has no real legal weight. ?

Any updates would be very much appreciated.
Hey Tony, nice to see you still around. Yes we’ve chatted in the past. Basically you got it all right. Pretty impressive seeing how much of a tangle it all is. Not much more to add but there’s currently a companion ban bill that passed house side but is now heading to senate. That’s about all, hope you’re well mate
 
As for sustainability . There are always bad apples that don’t conform to the rules . They work outside the rules to make a profit. They don’t care about the fishery or sustainability . It is pure profit until it collapses and they move on to the next . The waters you want to protect are not protected and watched 24/7. Isn’t Hawaii having an issue with invasive species of algae smothering reefs . Do all the reefs in all the islands show large numbers of algae grazers ? You may show sustainability but those you take may have been the ones to repopulate barren areas that were once productive reefs . Have all those reefs recovered?
With all due respect, none of this is an issue. What creates negative effects are black markets from closures not well managed White markets.

People break the rules when prices sail away from closures and when these markets are open, pricing comes down and bad actors evaporate. I join you in this concern and that’s why I support the reopening of the fishery. I don’t like seeing fish being poached illegally and bad actors making money while the people acting in good faith are shut out.
 
Now for those that want altruism , I say start your own breeding process and give away your product . I don’t see altruism when I see prices on torch coral and sps and anemones . Even though those are hobbyist produced . Those prices are sky high . . I see Duncan heads around 20and up . These Duncan’s can be easily produced . Even I was producing them , but not selling . I can’t fathom the price on hobbyist prices for mushrooms even the plain Jane common ones . 20+per shroom, I refuse to buy the flavor of the month sps, torch and anemones . I am not complaining about hobbyists selling them for market price . Good for them and for the overall hobby . I am not labeling them a cancer . It’s better to get it from them rather than pulling from the wild . The wild is shrinking and under a multitude of threats . So you better support Aq-c, mariculture , it may be the only thing you get in The future. If we continue to see bleaching events year over year . The coral reefs can’t recover . Countries will close down the collecting hobby even though the harvesting of fishes for food and feedstock will always strip the reefs more so than the hobby.
May I ask you a question?

How often do you spend time out in the water? Diving and observing these coral reefs you speak about? Just curious
 
Hey Tony, nice to see you still around. Yes we’ve chatted in the past. Basically you got it all right. Pretty impressive seeing how much of a tangle it all is. Not much more to add but there’s currently a companion ban bill that passed house side but is now heading to senate. That’s about all, hope you’re well mate
Thanks for the reply, hope you get a final decision and start collecting again.

I cant really see the legal argument of the new bill HB2101, the previous such bill 505 was defeated as it would seem unconstitutional in law to impose such a ban. I can not see how this bill would pass the senate with the majority needed.

To be honest I was very surprised the Attorney Generals Legal Representative did not give legal council at the meeting of the contested case as this was also not legally correct and should have been immediately dismissed at that meeting.

We both have a different approach to the subject however I respect both sides. Anyway good luck, I hope all parties accept the compromise that was agreed previously and move on.

Best wishes from across the pond.
 
Ok. I'm going to remind those engaging here that disagreement is allowed as long as it's handled respectfully. There are so many violations in this thread of our TOS that it would take a very large broom to clean it all up. So, I'm just going to ask that moving forward people refrain from insulting or personally attacking one another. Failure to do so will result in removal from this thread and possibly result in further restriction of your posting ability here. Let's keep it civil, folks.

Also, please remember this from our terms of service:

R2R reserves the right to remove any thread, post, review, feedback, image etc. that might be considered a libelous statement against another member or company. When leaving a review please keep to the facts and avoid speculation and ranting. Our community forum is not a platform to resolves disputes or host rants. Reviews and feedback that do not adhere to these guidelines will be removed.
 
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