Lighting for Mangroves ?

[ewelch]

Hello all , I'm not sure this is the right place but here we go ...

I am plumbing a 12" cube into my IM Nuvo 20 to setup a display refugium/mangrove tank .

I have been reading a lot about mangroves and their care over the last 6 months . I really want them to thrive and not just survive in this tank .

I just can't decide what to do for the lighting . I keep reading "brighter is better " . I have a 175 w halide setup I can use but it really feels like over kill on this tank . I run a Gen 4 XR15 on my Nuvo and I've been thinking about running the freshwater version over the 12" cube .

So finally to my question , do you think the XR15 "freshwater" Led will work ? Will the Halide work "better " ? I can hang the halide really high so I don't think heat would be too big of an issue ?

Thanks everyone !

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

More is not always better. No.

Yes a daylight spectrum is better. It is a full sun plant too. So you can use higher light. But I think that would blind ya.

 

[A. grandis]

I would use halide 65K for the mangrove and you can lit your corals with whatever else you get there.
It's hard to suggest when we don't know about the way you set the thing up.
Is the mangrove in another tank connected to the display or are you planning to have the mangroves on the display itself?
The best would be to use one MH pendant for the mangrove and another fixture for the tank.
I would research a bit more and you will see that the so called "benefits" of the mangroves isn't all true.
The concept of the idea is tempting but in practice it really doesn't work as we would like.
Your water will be yellow after a while and nutrients won't just feed the plant.
There is a reason why only certain corals thrive in a mangrove environment.
If you want to save time with maintenance and have nice SPS corals please forget mangroves.
They are time consuming too and won't keep nutrient levels low at all in the long run.
Now... if you REALLY want a plant showing in your tank I would recommend set up a small system just for them. ;)
Grandis.

 

[ewelch]

The 12" cube will be a separate tank . It will just be plumbed into my Nuvo .

They will have separate light sources . I am running the Gen 4 XR15 Pro over my Nuvo currently , ust cant decide on what light for the Mangrove tank .

I am not counting on the 12"cube mangrove tank for any nutrient reduction at all . Just simply another Display . Center Island , couple of Mangroves and some other macroalgae, sea grass etc .

 

[ewelch]

More is not always better. No.

Yes a daylight spectrum is better. It is a full sun plant too. So you can use higher light. But I think that would blind ya.

Thank you , so you think the XR15 "freshwater" would do the trick ?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thank you , so you think the XR15 "freshwater" would do the trick ?

Yup. Any marine one will do to. Just push the reds / whites and pull the blues. But if your buying a new and have them on the reef already , it'll look good. I do like some furintue appeal to a tank and my living room.

 

[A. grandis]

The 12" cube will be a separate tank . It will just be plumbed into my Nuvo .

They will have separate light sources . I am running the Gen 4 XR15 Pro over my Nuvo currently , ust cant decide on what light for the Mangrove tank .

I am not counting on the 12"cube mangrove tank for any nutrient reduction at all . Just simply another Display . Center Island , couple of Mangroves and some other macroalgae, sea grass etc .

Just keep it separated instead plumbed to the Nuvo then. You say you want them to thrive, not survive. For that I would suggest the 65K halides.
Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[ewelch]

@A. grandis , what is the reason to keep them seperate ?

Lack of nutrients from the main tank?

To many nutrients from the Mangrove tank causing issues in the main tank ?

 

[A. grandis]

@A. grandis , what is the reason to keep them seperate ?

Lack of nutrients from the main tank?

To many nutrients from the Mangrove tank causing issues in the main tank ?

Too many nutrients from mangroves to the display = more maintenance instead better control.
Grandis.

 

[ewelch]

Okay , so whether I plumb it in or not is still up in the air .
For the light , LED or Halide ?

Most suscefull mangroves I seen grown in tanks indoors are grown under halides

 

[mcarroll]

I don't know of many (any?) people who have succeeded at this.....have you found anyone who has that you can talk to?

I can tell you that most land plants have the same compensation points as corals seem to – 1000-5000 lux, roughly speaking. Not much.

A 90-120 "equivalent watt" (14-17w of LED; labelled around 1000 lumens) narrow-beam spotlight/floodlight (has to be narrow beam though) from the hardware store would do it for a small one...seedlings. You can get up to around 15,000 lux (or more) at close distance, but if you start them at around 1000 lux you'll be safer IMO. Most of the pots for my houseplants are about 30" from one of these lights and the plants (some bright light, some shady) were all about 6-8" tall when they went in...they got about 1000 lux.

One of the palms now grows literally up to the light.

At least without knowing something more specific about mangroves that contradicts this, hopefully this will help. :) :) :)

You'll need more coverage as it grows, obviously.

You very well may get faster growth with more light (e.g 10,000+ lux), but you'll want to be sure of how your tank is performing nutrient-wise AND what the mangroves' nutrient requirements are before you amp things "up to 11". :D

 

[ewelch]

I don't know of many (any?) people who have succeeded at this.....have you found anyone who has that you can talk to?

I can tell you that most land plants have the same compensation points as corals seem to – 1000-5000 lux, roughly speaking. Not much.

A 90-120 "equivalent watt" (14-17w of LED; labelled around 1000 lumens) narrow-beam spotlight/floodlight (has to be narrow beam though) from the hardware store would do it for a small one...seedlings. You can get up to around 15,000 lux at close distance, but if you start them at around 1000 lux you'll be safer IMO. At least without knowing something more specific about mangroves that contradicts this. :) :) :)

You'll need more coverage as it grows, obviously.

You very well may get faster growth with more light (e.g 10,000+ lux), but you'll want to be sure of how your tank is performing nutrient-wise AND what the mangroves' nutrient requirements are before you amp things "up to 11". :D

I do not know anyone personally that has done this successfully . Part of what makes me so interested . Will I fail, most likely but just about everything I have learned in this hobby as started with failure at some point lol.

I see some beautiful examples on the internet , mainly Julian Spung's tank . I know it's crazy to attempt anything that someone with so much experience has done but I am facinated by mangroves and a lot of micro fauna that most Reefers ( myslef included for a long time ) would never have thought of catering to.

As far as nutrients , I plan on actually keeping the mangrove in a net pot with appropriate soil/mud/sand . I assume that most of the nutrients will be found there . This will also make moving and transplanting the mangrove to larger vessels easier as it and my system grows ....hopefully

 

[mcarroll]

First, you are on the right track – I wasn't trying to dissuade you! Having a model to follow (or at least avoid!!) is advantageous! :) :)

I see some beautiful examples on the internet , mainly Julian Spung's tank . I know it's crazy to attempt anything that someone with so much experience has done

Why would an expert in the thing you're trying to learn be regarded as crazy to model? He should be your go-to! :)

(If all you have to go by is photos and there's no info as to how, I'd flush that as an example altogether....who knows what goes into a picture. Surely there's real info out there.)

I guess he keeps to books, but if you know about him growing mangroves, I'd hope there's some info out there about how. It would be very unfortunate if we couldn't use an expert as an example to learn from! :D

I would put some time into gathering the info you are able to about his mangrove effort.

Did you turn up anything here on R2R about mangroves? Anyone here doing it? (@saltyfilmfolks do I remember you mentioning mangroves?)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@A. grandis , what is the reason to keep them seperate ?

Lack of nutrients from the main tank?

To many nutrients from the Mangrove tank causing issues in the main tank ?

Do what you want. IMO both work. But it is true , mangroves aren't that great at nutints.

Okay , so whether I plumb it in or not is still up in the air .
For the light , LED or Halide ?

Most suscefull mangroves I seen grown in tanks indoors are grown under halides

Doesn't matter the type of light. It's spectrum and intensity. Put what you like. All of them will work. You will need a high intensity.

You could , fwiw, use a Phillips par 38 48,000 k led par from Home Depot for $17. Its got the right spectrum and is pretty bright.
So bright I have to keep them about 4+ feet from my orchids. The lower light orchids are even lower on the rack. About 6 feet.

 

[ewelch]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I searched here and I really haven't found much info on them specifically . Most of what I find is "I bought 5 mangroves and stuck them in my tank " kind of threads . Not that there is anything wrong with that but dedicated and focused info on keeping a mangrove specific tank has been hard to come by .

Maybe it's been tried but it's just not feasible for the average hobbyist ? Who knows ?

I haven't given up and I will most certanily give it a try and see what I can learn along the way .

I'm hoping someone sees this thread that has some experince with just what I'm trying to do and maybe they can chime in .

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I searched here and I really haven't found much info on them specifically . Most of what I find is "I bought 5 mangroves and stuck them in my tank " kind of threads . Not that there is anything wrong with that but dedicated and focused info on keeping a mangrove specific tank has been hard to come by .

Maybe it's been tried but it's just not feasible for the average hobbyist ? Who knows ?

I haven't given up and I will most certanily give it a try and see what I can learn along the way .

I'm hoping someone sees this thread that has some experince with just what I'm trying to do and maybe they can chime in .

Google Scott fellman and Julian Sprung mangroves. I could find the lab articles too and all the aquariums that have done it and the aquarists that have done for all these years. Theses a lot of university research papers in the subject as well. Mostly Florida India and Asia.

 

[A. grandis]

Okay , so whether I plumb it in or not is still up in the air .
For the light , LED or Halide ?

Most suscefull mangroves I seen grown in tanks indoors are grown under halides

Yeah, you can keep mangroves with any light fixture for a short period, but you have mentioned you want them to thrive and not just survive. Please get a 250W 65K halide pendant and make sure to spray it's leaves like twice a day. Brackish water is the best. No mystery keeping them. Easy plant. Just don't connect to a coral system. That should be done knowing that you'll have lots of maintenance and to selected corals. No SPS would do good with mangroves in a closed system for a long time.
Grandis.

 

[ewelch]

I'm sorry but I still don't understand the notion of not connecting it to a system with coral in it ?

I see pictures of almost full blown SPS tanks with mangroves growing out of the top ? Some running for many years this way .

 

[A. grandis]

The 2 main problems I see is the release of Phenols in the water and the specific gravity. Phenols are acidic compounds that makes the water yellowish/brown after combining with other compounds. Therefore you'll need to perform water changes very often which in my point of view is indeed a must. The use of a great powerful skimmer will help you out with that. I know some authors kinda think that an "organic rich" system shouldn't have skimmers or it's use should be minimized, but the balance and our normal busy lives will need one in many cases. Mangroves are plants and should be treated as plants. They don't do too well in full salinity and normally they get nutrients from land soil too!! They are actually trees and you need to know that the environment they are originally from doesn't have any of the prime SPS corals you want to keep.;Wideyed I would think you want some nice SPS too, right? You can try to have some hardy corals like LPS and some stronger "hard to kill" SPS corals (Seriatopora, Pocillopora,...) after the system is well stablished, but you'll still need to keep the good maintenance and watch salinity!! They normally won't grow and show colors because of the excess of nutrients present. I actually think that all of the systems containing corals should have a good maintenance schedule, but with the mangroves, the need of exportation of nutrients is much needed for the other organisms present in the system simply because it's a closed system, not in their natural habitat.

The plant needs daylight spectrum, like salty posted before. They love the heat of the sun, thus my recommendation for halides. As I've said before, you can keep them under any kind of light, but halides is the very best for the plant!
Here is an article I found for you:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/bringing-the-biodiversity-and-the-creativity-game-on.355/

There are some basic tips of how to take care of mangroves and a simple list of corals you can try.
I did not necessarily agree with 100% of the article, but it is a great one to start with.
If you are really up to keep a good maintenance schedule with the system you can make it.
I just don't think you want to waste a display connected with the mangroves once there is absolutely no benefits of nutrient export. That is a myth from the past. Unless you want to keep "hard to die" corals in that display **waste of space**.
I would set them separately and have a "prime system" on the side of the "tree system". That should look good enough, don't you think?
Grandis.

 

[ewelch]

Okay I get it now . I guess you are right . There is really no bennifit of having the two systems plumbed together . Other than more water volume . 20 gallons vs 28 gallons lol . Most people here change that much water weekly .

Also thank you for the link . I am looking for any and all information is can find to give this my best shot . I think halides are the way to go . I can mount them high for plenty or room for growth and should provide all the light/heat the plants will need .