Lights On or off during cycle...?

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm definitely off track if the question is still about whether the lights should be on...so apologies to the OP if needed...hopefully this is all interesting! It is to me!


Unless you're starting with a sterile medium and pure culture, that seems like a roll of the dice.

In real life cases, carbon dosing itself seems to be ecologically destabilizing. Reefs are carbon limited and apparently kinda depend on that to allow the dominance of the proper photosynthetics (which make their own carbon).

In absence of that domination (say...due to carbon source dosing; or pollution), you get domination by an alternate set of characters (so-called harmful algae or "HAB's") and consequent health issues among the higher animals. This trend holds in the wild across many different pest species and aquatic environments and seems well-represented in reef aquariums as well.

Lol. Read the Red Sea website.

And don’t tell anyone that if you just put dry rock in a tank it’ll cycle eventually.

Off track again , not exactly carbon limited. Only in ways reefers (and humans ) would consider it. All of life is carbon exchange in one form or another. How that carbon exchange happens , is dependent on how the organism evolved to so do depending on what and where it is. Volcanic vents for example.

Red Sea and others build a large nitrifying bacterial population first , then build and supply the other needed ions and elements , while only hinting and the need for these in the exchange process.

Light energy and heat , are just a bonus in this process. Leds are new to the mix and the IR is provided now manly by the heater, and sadly the UV isn’t replaced that generaly kills off unwanted bad bacterial and viral strains found in cryptic sections of the tank. Thier benifit and amount is Highly speculated anyway.

A fwiw , you can accomplish the same thing as Red Sea and dry rock by simply starting by over feeding with a wide rage of foods, or one steak and a salad , letting it settle and process out and not add fish and coral. (Algae and photosynthetic hitchhikers).
This builds a huge bio filter , adds “vitamins”. Then you just selectively add organisms you may find benificial. Like corraline.
That was actually my take away for the Red Sea , Zeo, Triton etc maturation methods in comparison to other more “holistic “ or natural (science) based methods.
It’s just several ways to skin the cat.

This just comes with instructions on the box.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I have no comment on the Red Sea procedure as I am not familiar with it, but can definitely say this: Nitrifying bacteria are more sensitive to environmental conditions than the carbonaceous bugs. Of course pH and temperature have major impacts on their culture, but it is not commonly acknowledged that they are sensitive to light. Way too many years in the environmental field, now thankfully retired - I don't have to deal with the EPA or state agencies any more!

 

[mcarroll]

Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom is one of my favorite references on these effects. I'll have to check more into the Red Sea kit later.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom is one of my favorite references on these effects. I'll have to check more into the Red Sea kit later.

I’ve always been curious as to the content of the Antarctic upswells that formed and feed the southern reefs.

 

[grassy_noel]

I've clearly waded in over my head here, but a fascinating discussion!

I was just trying to say that if you follow the instructions in the Red Sea Mature box, they say:

1. Use live rock (I confirmed this with a call to Red Sea's customer service)

2. The complete RS Mature process (ammonia spike, nitrite spike, nitrate rise and fall to less than 10ppm) should take ~21 days. This took ~40 days for me starting with dry rock.

3. Yes, RS does have you dose NoPoX (carbon dosing) throughout the whole cycle and indefinitely afterwards. I'm not endorsing this, just merely stating what the program includes.

For my part, I've been using NoPoX for ~3 months since I finished the program with mixed results. I dose a bit less than the recommended dose for my tank volume (~0.5ml/day for ~16 gallons) and I seem to oscillate between occasional bacterial blooms/slime events, and 0.00 levels of Nitrate and Phosphate, neither of which are desirable. That said, I have a fairly small tank with no space for an appropriate sized refugium. Other than regular, huge water changes, I'm not sure of a better way to keep nitrate and phosphate levels down. I'd love to hear recommendations on alternate methods within these constraints...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I've clearly waded in over my head here, but a fascinating discussion!

I was just trying to say that if you follow the instructions in the Red Sea Mature box, they say:

1. Use live rock (I confirmed this with a call to Red Sea's customer service)

2. The complete RS Mature process (ammonia spike, nitrite spike, nitrate rise and fall to less than 10ppm) should take ~21 days. This took ~40 days for me starting with dry rock.

3. Yes, RS does have you dose NoPoX (carbon dosing) throughout the whole cycle and indefinitely afterwards. I'm not endorsing this, just merely stating what the program includes.

For my part, I've been using NoPoX for ~3 months since I finished the program with mixed results. I dose a bit less than the recommended dose for my tank volume (~0.5ml/day for ~16 gallons) and I seem to oscillate between occasional bacterial blooms/slime events, and 0.00 levels of Nitrate and Phosphate, neither of which are desirable. That said, I have a fairly small tank with no space for an appropriate sized refugium. Other than regular, huge water changes, I'm not sure of a better way to keep nitrate and phosphate levels down. I'd love to hear recommendations on alternate methods within these constraints...

It is a bit odd, and something in noted in several methods, the slight mis direction as far as both the term and definition of live rock. If you look to buy rock it’s often dry but marked as “live rock”. But if I take my live rock out at give it to my buddy down the street, he’s not going to have a ammonia spike. Because it’s live. A lot of folks here on the R2r over the years get confused when cycling the yank necuse they didn’t get an ammonia spike. They started with bagged live sand and wet “cured” cycled, live rock. Add ammoina and have none the next day.
I’ve had whole multi page threads on how to and tips for cycleing the tank and why there’s no ammoina , and the short answer was , it was already live.
Lol.


You’re asking for help on zero N/P numbers? Or higher numbers ?

 

[grassy_noel]

I was asking for ways to keep nitrate/phosphate low, but not zero with methods other than carbon dosing. It's hard to find a good recommended level other than "low but not zero," but Red Sea recommends for a Mixed Reef: Nitrate = 1-2ppm and Phosphate 0.08-0.12 ppm.

From what I've read, water changes just dilute nitrate and phosphate, so it's difficult to keep them low indefinitely (not sure if this is true). But, I also know from personal experience that methods like carbon dosing, which actively reduce nitrates and phosphates, can strip the water and lead to zero levels of both, which I understand is also not good.

I realize this is probably a question for its own post, so apologies to OP and anyone else for the sidetrack...